Graham Brown: Let's start off talking about commercial radio. You had a long career in commercial radio. And what did that teach you about audiences and storytelling in the audio format?

Darcy Milne: Graham, thank you for having me. It's awesome to be on the podcast. And it's great to talk to someone else who is passionate about this space and brings their expertise to the picture.

So my background was radio. I spent 12 years producing radio shows as an audio producer. So they were typically national radio shows, reaching an audience of about a million-plus per show. And I did that for 12 years.

So, breakfast shows, drive time radio shows. I was lucky enough to win an award for best achievement in production. So I love the radio. I grew up as a 14-year-old doing an internship and went all the way up to the top.

So that space is very cool. And in terms of what it teaches you about audiences and specifically when it comes to reaching them via audio, it's a powerful medium. It's connecting with people where they're generally in the cars, in the radio format. It gives way to people telling their stories, it gives way to comedy. Often I worked in comedy radio shows and it really looks at how to reach them in the best way.

So that started off as just traditional radio frequencies and reaching them that way and then that progressed into the digital space and connecting video and social media to radio shows. And now we're seeing a trend where radio stations are now investing heavily into the podcast space. So it's been really awesome to see that transition.

Graham Brown: You had the number one drive show, which I imagine is the most competitive slot in the scheduling. The Kate, Tim and Marty, obviously, this is probably a known name in Australia. I guess that was the one that you got the million-plus audience on. What does it take to achieve that I guess not just on a singular basis, but on a consistent basis?

Darcy Milne: Definitely, chemistry's a big part of that. So it was made up of Kate Ritchie who was made famous through the Home and Away. She was an actor for 20 plus years before joining radio. You had Marty Sheargold, who's a comedian in his own right, and then Tim Blackwell, who brings the real radio piece, the technical piece and contributes to that conversation.

Chemistry's the reason people will tune in. You have to have a show that is enjoyable to listen to as a fly-on-the-wall listener. And that show achieved that. But behind the scenes, you have to have execution at a very high level and do that day in and day out. So as part of a team whilst I was the only audio producer on that team, there were three other producers, one of them was an executive producer who each day came to the table with content ideas, refining what we're going to talk about.

It's a team meeting and then it's jumping on and hitting live, which is the most exciting part of radio. There's no taking that back. So definitely chemistry, high execution, and building that relationship with your audience, letting them in. We're letting them in on the jokes. There was a whole language of the show.

They were all of the in-jokes. There was banter. And I think that plays a big part rather than just the traditional, two hosts who, not that they can't have that banter, but when three people are in it, it's well-executed, then you got something really special. And that’s radio.

Graham Brown: Curious about this chemistry. If you, for example, were a betting man and you had to bet on a series of three hosts that were like a carousel, like coming into your office and saying, we want to start a radio show. Which one would you bet on? How would you identify that chemistry?

Because I imagine it's probably quite easy to post rationalizations, isn't it? Oh yeah. That's why it’s successful, right? But identifying it, it's almost like betting on startups. Isn't it? What would be the telltale signs?

Darcy Milne: Look, I think speaking from an audio producer perspective, who's heard a lot of different shows and a lot of shows that didn't work, that didn't have the right chemistry, and probably learning most from them, you have to be a team player first and foremost. You have to bring a unique experience.

So in that case, there was a comedian, there was an actor and a radio person. All of them had a unique experience, but all of them were happy to be a team player. And that's so important because where it doesn't work is if you want to be front and center, if it's about you and then that isolates the co host that you're dealing with.

So if I was a betting man, I would say, A) they have to have the right attitude going into it. B) they have to have enough of a unique experience and background and life experience entering into that picture. And, those are the two biggest things. Then you need to put them in a room, put some mics on and hit record, and see how it sounds, but choose very quickly.

You'll tell if there's something special here or not. That X factor, I guess, is what I'm describing here is and that can only come from doing the demos, which they all do, and doing a two-week trial and seeing what they sound like together.

Graham Brown: Some interesting points Darcy, this idea of isolating co-hosts or hosts or even guests. Thinking about what we've experienced in the last 18 months. This is a huge explosion in not only podcasts but webinars and as the main format of communication across the internet, digital.

I mean, radio excluded obviously. And what seems to be the MO for most shows, if I can even say that, I would say more like events, more than anything, or podcasts, is there is a lack of chemistry, partly because people don't know that's how it should be. Maybe, it's going back to the very early days of radio, which is linear.

In a sense it's broadcast, but this idea, like you're saying, like the hosts, the co-host, letting people in on the jokes, there is a big difference when I listened to the radio and listened to podcasts, that radio speaks to the audience, it speaks to you as the audience. Whereas podcasts seem to be a conversation, which I'm almost like looking through the glass window. And almost like a focus group from the old days that seems to be the feeling I get.

Obviously, the successful ones are very different. What is your take on that and what needs to change? Is it just a matter of time before people start realizing, actually I can't rely on guests sharing? I need organic audiences. And to do that I need to speak to them directly. What's missing at the moment in podcasts?

Darcy Milne: Well, the reason I left radio. So I left radio full-time in March last year. So 12 months down the track, because I could see that there was something missing in this podcast space. There were, as you described, some people who were just getting together in a room and it didn't have that same energy and passion and connection to the audience that a radio show should achieve.

So what I think needs to change really is anyone looking to start a podcast, connecting with a podcast producer, be that myself or there's a whole range of people out there now who can coach them through that process, who can show them how to bridge the gap between just having a fly on the wall audience and really deeply connecting with them week in and week out, building that audience, seeing that growth building in interaction, celebrating milestones.

I mean, these are all the things that radio does so well and I don't think it's hard to achieve that in a podcast space if you meet the right people and what is exciting, what I love about podcasts, it's now giving people the opportunity. Radio's really hard to get into.

If you want to share something that you're passionate about or be an announcer. And it often just puts the tools, such as the microphones and the support of a radio station in the hands of a very small number of very selected people. And so we're now on this as an equal playing field. But you've got to do it right. That doesn't mean everyone should start a podcast.

It doesn't mean that you feel like you've got FOMO so as a company or organization, we should just buy some microphones, hit record, and see what happens. I think if you can step into it with a mindset of let's achieve something, build an audience, learn what we don't know. Then you can get the same result. I think.

Graham Brown: The market's moved on, hasn't it? Just starting a podcast and building an audience was a given a few years ago because of supply and demand, wasn't it? But like you say, now it's an equal playing field. A lot of people do have access and knowledge, importantly.

So now the supply of podcasts is increasing and to stand out from the noise, you need to apply all these ideas that you've talked about from the radio. If you were to take the average podcast now, which is, man speaks to man, about man's journey. That's fine, I mean, that was okay, a few years ago.

And then, as you say, maybe a very good foot on the ladder to get started in a podcast. That's step one. Where do I go with that? If I'm a brand and I'm doing that kind of podcast, where do I need to aim towards knowing what you know about radio? What would be my next steps? How do I make that more engaging?

Darcy Milne: Yeah, that's a great question. I love building engaging podcasts. So I think a great example of where a brand has entered the space with a different mindset of how do we create engaging content for our audience to consume would be IKEA.

And so IKEA came to me before they launched a podcast channel in Australia, and we had this chat that we're having now of like, how do we build that and make it engaging. And rather than just the traditional interviews which absolutely have their place. And we do that with the IKEA brand because it's important.

If you can get thought leaders who are going to really speak to the areas that your audience needs to hear from them, that's important. But then also think outside the box. So something we did with IKEA is build a sleep podcast.

This podcast is 30 minutes, guided, almost meditation. And it's got an IKEA employee reading the Ikea magazine in a very slow, relaxing voice and there's music and that took off. People loved that because not only..

Graham Brown: I love it.

Darcy Milne: Not only though, did IKEA get to bring their messaging, which is what a podcast is about. You're sharing a message. But they gotta do it in a way that really engages their audience. And it's crazy.

You look at the map of that, thousands of people every night still go to sleep with that IKEA 2020 sleep podcast and the new one that has just come out. And so, it's having fun with it, it doesn't have to have a corporate look and feel, just because you're a business or an organization doing that.

It can be fun and engaging content-wise, and then you can bring your audience along the way as well. So having interaction, it's getting them to leave you voicemails or emails and reading that out, like having that two-way conversation, rather than, as you say, just two people having a chat, and then that's it. That's where it ends.

Graham Brown: I absolutely love that podcast. I think it's a masterpiece and it is an award-winning podcast in my book. I've been telling everybody about it as well. I mean, if you were to listen to it, it's so on brand.

You could have taken this in different ways, Darcy, you could have done this the very traditional way, and yet here is IKEA, which is a multinational corporation to some degree, a little bit faceless, like all multinational corporations, a billion-dollar enterprise will naturally become very corporate.

And here we have a very, I mean, if you know, Scandinavians and Swedish, very subtle humor, which you have to be in on the joke. It's not really obvious. So when you've got somebody saying, this is a bedside table, my best Swedish accent, like at face value, it possibly appears quite dry, but there's humor in there and it's very human.

And I think that's a masterpiece and the fact that you can humanize a brand, which is very much front and center of the public consciousness. And show that actually these people are people really, and they have a sense of humor that works wonderfully.

Darcy Milne: If you look at who that is, who they've used to be now, the unofficial voice of IKEA, it's Ken. He's someone who's from Sweden, and has worked at the company for 20 years. There have been times me and my wife have gone to IKEA and seen him there. And you bump into him and he's friendly, which is great.

But I think too, it also identifies that there are so many humans within any given organization, and it's such an opportunity for a company to identify who is going to be the voice of this company and be engaging in this way and can’t be pretty shy and knows of the process, to begin with.

And over time it just came alive. And if we give the people who are already on the team the opportunity, then you get such a great thing. And now when I go to IKEA, you think of Ken and that's a pretty powerful branding opportunity, I think.

Graham Brown: That's a win completely. Humanizing the brand, isn't it? Absolutely. When people follow people, not brands now. There is a connection to the Ikea brand, but increasingly people will connect with ‘him’ and the people, if I care, if you think about your experience of IKEA or any service industry, it's very much defined by the last person you contact, whether that's the person you contact on the phone or a flight attendant or somebody at the checkout, that's your experience of the brand.

That if you have somebody at the checkout, who gives you a negative experience, that doesn't matter. You can spend millions on advertising yet the people really create the brand and therefore we're in this interesting time now for brands is that we're moving from an era where it was very much top-down where, in a sense, it was about the brand.

And even when the brand communicated to audiences, it was through proxies and proxies where actors and even mascots like Tony, the Tiger. These were not people. These were things, cartoon characters, fake influencers like they had on whiter than white washing powder type ads.

Darcy Milne: Or these funny but now creepy characters.

Graham Brown: or Mcdonald’s. I’m sorry but what's creepier than a clown. And then you've got, now this challenge of how do you humanize a brand? And I guess, the challenge Darcy is, as an owner of a brand, my concern is that firstly, my people aren't comedians and X actors like you have on the radio.

And secondly, I'm a little bit scared if I give my people a voice that what may happen, that we may let the genie out of the bottle. How do you deal with that conversation? Because I imagine, for years it's been based on control, where does it go from there? How do you sort of reassure people in that situation?

Darcy Milne: And I think it's a really important thing. If you're not having that conversation and then you're rushing into this process and what I have day in and day out with brands who want to enter this space is, having a good editor makes a world of difference. I think that's a really important thing.

A podcast is often a prerecorded medium. So you still have an element where you can shape that conversation and make sure you put your best foot forward. But it's also working with those people.

So more often than not, we'll do some pre-coaching before we even hit record on anything to make sure the structure of the podcast is going to resonate, make sure the topics are going to resonate and make sure that the person in that hosting role is going to feel comfortable and at ease before we put a microphone in front of them.

But what I think is really important and something I'm deeply passionate about. The people that you're trying to reach are just humans. They're mums and dads. They're work people, they're commuting, they are just humans. And this is an opportunity for another human to talk to them about your brand and put it through that human filter. So sometimes it shouldn't be polished.

Sometimes it shouldn't just be this very professional, very contrived presentation of audio. If you can bring and introduce that human element into the podcast space, I think it makes your brand way more accessible. It makes them on a human level and connects with these people on a human level.

And I think that's the power of it. No longer do we rely on, as we say, the hand-blown burglar or Snoop Dogg, trying to sell us menu logs. We can rely on engaging, intelligent, articulate conversations. That means something to us that is targeting what would resonate with your ideal customer.

Graham Brown: Amen to that. It's fascinating, isn't it? We're almost going full circle back on retail and services. And in the old days, it would have been, if you went to the butcher or you went to the candlestick maker, whatever it may be, you would have got service and they would have asked you - how’s the family, the kids are in school, it's almost like going back to that, humanizing it in a way.

That kind of idea or very nostalgic idea of service. But that's possible if we can take those ideas on board, as you talk about almost like, you're giving people [inaudible]. That, okay, you can play within this space.

And these are on point and okay, you can talk, but just remember that we have an editor, so you can say to the comms manager, the brand manager that it's not going to go off-brand. So it gives them the confidence that they have that sandbox to play in.

Darcy Milne: Yeah, but also invest. So the other thing I'd say to anyone listening to these contemplating of building a podcast is don't start that process by recording it on your phone or recording into a cheap USB microphone.

Like, reach out to someone like myself who can guide you down the right equipment path of going - Let's get some great equipment, let's get a great microphone, let's have that pre-coaching session then you can feel and sound confident.

And that's the important disclaimer in this process is if you want to enter the podcast space, people are going to judge you now on your audio quality. And that is what's representing people's brands in this age of audio that we're in. And so it's really important that you get that right too.

Graham Brown: Lastly, Darcy, I want to ask, what do you know about podcasts that other people don't know at this stage? And what is it that you believe that the world disagrees with you on, when it comes to audio and podcasts?

Darcy Milne: Interesting. I guess it would be that this is the early beginning of it. There are some people out there who have voiced this to me that go, “Yep, podcasting is a fad. And if you're jumping on a podcast now you're late to the bat.” And what I would say as an insider and someone who loves this space, but he's in it day in and day out is, it is just heating up, especially in Australia.

And I'm talking about within the last matter of weeks. So, a great example is we're about to employ another full-time staff member here. And if you look at the job market, there's four or five other full-time, audio roles going just for podcast editing. And so now radios are investing, like radio stations and TV stations are investing heavily in this space. And it's going to give way to I think great content.

That's going to come through those channels. And I think it will entice those people who have been on the edge of going, “Oh, should I start a podcast? Should I not start a podcast?” And then going, “Yeah, I could jump into that.” And you could go down the radio avenue or you could go down the independent podcast production avenue, which is what we specialize in, or you could DIY it yourself as well.

It's going to give way to more stories, more opinions, more expression. And what I love is when we look around like I caught the train in Sydney, I caught the train you look around and there's such a diverse collection of people who make up our environments now. And I think podcasting is just getting more exciting because suddenly there's a way for those opinions and views and experiences to come to life through this audio medium.

So look, you can tell I'm passionate about it, but I really think it's just starting, we're at the start of something really special and something that's going to be really impactful. Yes, brands can reach their audience. Yes, people have the opportunity to share their niche, but more importantly, people are going to hear your stories and content that's going to resonate with them on a human level. And I think that's just the most exciting thing.