Graham Brown: Your background is, I think, you're a storyteller.

Carl Javier: Yes.

Graham Brown: Tell us a little bit about what makes a great story in the audio format.

Carl Javier: One thing that we talk about at the PumaPodcast is having an audio first imagination, which is really like taking everything that we understand about the medium and maximizing what is in that medium that you can play with. So before I was doing podcasts, I was doing comics and my focus in comics was to use as few words as possible because the innate nature of the comic was visual. And then the words were supplementary to me. And so when I started doing audio storytelling, I essentially had to deprive myself of all the visuals, but then I came to understand all of these other audio elements, which were much more powerful. Because I've also worked in TV and film and all of these other things, one of the ideas that I really latch onto is that our audio response is faster than our brain processing. Like if we hear a crash, our body physically responds before we can even process that thing that we heard we've already responded to it. There's a viscerality to audio that is like it's undeniable. Like you hear it and your body is reacting to it. And that's sort of my starting point with playing audio is trying to approximate things that people will respond to, even if they don't understand it yet. It's almost like trying to make music with a podcast.

Graham Brown: You talked about comics as an example. What's the sort of parallels, storytelling between these two forms?

Carl Javier: I think all stories are about conflict. There's no story without a good conflict. And it's the idea of how each form can introduce elements that the other doesn't. So, in a comic you can use shadow, you can use certain elements to highlight the feeling, like you don't even have to say that this dude is a bad dude. You just have to draw them a certain way and it's the same thing. It's the acting. It's the framing. It's the music that we can put underneath something. We've seen all of these like analysis or you get an image and then if you put a different soundtrack on it, then it has a totally different feeling. And it's the ability to manipulate all of those feelings.

Graham Brown: How do you create conflict when, for example, you're telling like a journalistic podcast type story, or for example, it's a brand and they are probably less likely to do something that might be in any way controversial. What is that conflict there? What are the opportunities?

Carl Javier: I think for brands specifically, there's always a conflict. For a brand, the conflict might be how is my product addressing a need? And that need is the conflict, the lack of it, or the need to serve that. For example, we work with banking and digital services and the conflict is not everybody has access to digital services. And so building the frame around that. So I think where the journalism and the journalistic approach comes in is trying to find those other angles. It doesn't seem apparent that there's a conflict, but we find out what the point is where the story can emerge.

Graham Brown: Yeah. I was listening to Ira Glass from this American Life, talking about his structure and it was three scenes, just like Shakespeare. You've got action, conflict, resolution, action in the movie sense, it's that dead body lying on the ground at the beginning of the movie and the gun, and then the footsteps running away. And then the conflict is that sort of dynamic tension that's set up in the plot which is really in storytelling terms is called like the through story, the arrow of the narrative that takes you on this journey. And then the resolution is the coming home effectively or the removal of the conflict as well. Is it possible to incorporate these techniques and these devices in something as simple as an interview?

Carl Javier: So I'm a guy who relies on old structures. I'll be like, I'm going to take this idea from this thing. And I'm going to take this idea from this thing, and I'm going to see how I can use it to shape a new narrative. And so even in an interview, there's still that like you bring somebody in, you talk to them, when you ask them, "Why are they there?" Right there is that conflict you're talking to them because they have something, they're trying to get a point across. It's like script writing 101. Whenever you have two characters sitting, both of those characters need to have different ones and you draw out what that character wants, what their intentions are, and you build conflict by either opposing what that character wants or giving them something. So then they'll give you what you want in return. And that's the interplay of the interview. I hope it doesn't sound too mercenary to say it, but interviews are like negotiations, right there negotiations for information. I realize there's a weird method level to this with me giving all of this information within an interview.

Graham Brown: Exactly. I’m curious because it seems Carl that, in podcasting today, the vast majority of podcasts are of this format. Man speaks to a man about a man. Let's face the boring backstory and the backstory isn't boring. It's just told in a very boring, dry way. A lot is sort of step one in all podcasting today. And yeah, it's great because that helps us get into the game, but there is no dynamic tension, there is no conflict, there is no true story. There are no two characters with different ones. And there is no script and it's just, “Okay Carl, tell me about yourself.” And people don't know how to answer that question because especially if they're corporate as well, they really don't know how to answer that question in an engaging way. The host's role in this has to be somehow to make people care and ask questions that don't ask the obvious, but let's say, we start that kind of conversation. It would be called, take me back to that point where you were just about to launch your first movie. You know, that's like a scene setter, isn't it?

Carl Javier: I think that when we're talking about narratives and teaching people how to place things within a narrative. Again it's like trying to set up boxes that we fill in and the beauty of storytelling and structure is that they're defined boxes like the three-act structure. There's a three-part story arc and everyone uses the same structure and the beauty of it is trying to tell that story and then make it so that people don't see the structure. And they only enjoy the details of the story that you're telling. And I feel like at least, again, with me advancing my desires here. One approach that we have at the PumaPodcast is we spend so much time in pre-production and development. And that's like a term that a lot of podcasters that I've talked to when I share the idea with them, they're like, oh shoot, you guys spent so much time in prep because when I worked on other media, TV, movies before you got to the shoot, you spent months writing your story and refining it and fighting over the storyboards and figuring it out so that once the shooting actually commenced, you were just executing on that concept. And so a lot of podcasters think, I'm just going to sit, we're going to hang. It's going to be super cool. And these people have great ideas and often it is, but what if it's not? And what if you can't control it? And that speaks to my being a bit of a control freak with narrative and wanting to be able to prep, do the recording, and have control in posts so that I'm able to craft a really effective narrative for the listener.

Graham Brown: What is pre-production? And what exactly would that be in the world of the podcast and give us a flavor of what most people aren't doing.

Carl Javier: For us, it's sitting with say a client or a partner, and I show the Bible, which is a standard tool in like TV, film, and walking them through every piece of that process. Like, who is this for? How long are these episodes? My favorite question is, what is this show not about, who are we not talking to? What are we going to leave on the table in terms of the audience so that it can help us to really speak to those that we really want to talk to? So all of that prep, it's a time investment that is, I feel like it's a really good use of time for people who want to tell stories, because if we jump into the recording, I mean, like for this, you gave me a fair amount of prep. It has to look like we're not prepared but it has to feel genuine and honest. So it's weird that prepping can get you there. It's the same for actors. They only act naturally once they've had the time to prep and imbibe the role.

Graham Brown: Yeah. I'm trying to think of the sync with acting, that you're right, that the fact you've practiced your lines so many times. And the fact that you've become really good at memorizing lines and interacting with people means that you can be natural. The fact is kind of like, let me backup a little bit here. I remember a good friend of mine who was an actor. He also was an animator. He was both sides of the camera, but he started off in animation and digital animation and drawing like even comics., I remember he said to me something which has always stuck in my mind when I'm thinking about the podcast or any sort of public speaking, is, he said, “Imagine a comic character walking across a room. And they were, for example, walking across a room of sticky treacle and you can imagine that the physical sort of like the shapes that would be sort of like walking across this sticky glue. And how they had to really emphasize it, sticky treacle he kept saying, and he said, acting is a bit like that, is that to create that feeling you have to almost over-exaggerate because a lot is lost through the lens when I'm not sitting in front of you. Now I think about this in the context of audio is how do you create that sticky treacle effect where you're trying to over-exaggerate, just to bring it back to a natural baseline that feels believable. Because most people, when they do a podcast, it's like ‘Hello, Carl.’ It's very monotonous. But how do you create that sort of engagement without the benefit of actually seeing somebody?

Carl Javier: Well, one, I would just go back to how you were speaking about the sticky treacle and you intentionally slowed down your words and you really enunciated that you had them feel it like it’s right there. And that's where it lies, that's the beauty of audio right now is if I slow down my voice, it emphasizes and the listener is forced to slow down with me. And because we're in audio, they have to imagine what I look like. They have to imagine I’m smiling or I'm stuck or whatever, and so it's super cool as a communication medium because the listener is always involved in audio because they're drawing out what you look like and what I look like. I can see your background, but they can't. They have to imagine they're filling all of it in. And so the way that we use our voices and the way that we draw out and part of the beauty of it when you do scripted content, is that you can take the time to write out these descriptions and if you're working with a good enough production house, then they're bedding really good music that sets that feeling and sets the ambiance and even brings in sound effects to get you to think that you're where they are. And those are all those like pieces of audio that actually create a mental picture. It is like acting, it is a performance. And that's the thing, like people think they turn on the mic and they're already performing. But imagine the difference of that versus if you embrace the performativity of everything and you actually built out your persona character. And they were a thing that exists in your podcast as the podcast hosts like there's all of these layers of metacognition. I'm talking to you now as the CEO of the PumaPodcast, this isn't the normal me. This is a performative me that I turn on that seems way cooler than the me that just hangs out. And each of those kinds of identities is specific performance. And maybe if brands started thinking that way, then it has to be a performance. The podcast is a potential performance of their brand and their brand values and what they represent.

Graham Brown: I like that. But it was nice that last bit, 'Podcast is a performance of the brand.' What would the opposite of that be? It would be a presentation. Isn't it? That's sort of what we're used to in webinars, a presentation.

Carl Javier: Like a commercial.

Graham Brown: Yeah. I suppose the acceptance of performance is that you have to engage because attention is valuable. If I'm not engaging, I'm not a clown, right? I'm not entertaining you like juggling balls. I could do that. But in different ways, like, reaching you, speaking emotionally, trying to tug your heartstrings at the right moments and all these kinds of things, that's a performance, isn't it. And the challenge then Carl is, corporations and businesses where we have spent 20 years not doing that and therefore being successful at not doing that and hiding all of that. That's tough. Isn't it? I mean, how does that sort of, how do you get the VP of marketing to perform?

Carl Javier: Okay. That's a really interesting question because it overlaps with the challenge of authenticity and performance, because if it's a performance, how can it be authentic? But at the same time, knowing who you are and performing who you are can be more real than making a commercial. I feel like the opposite of a branded podcast is commercial because it's short, they have like 30 seconds. They have to throw the sales pitch at you. It's all that but if you make a branded podcast, whether it's an interview format or it's a narrative, it's an opportunity to use storytelling to show, not necessarily, it doesn't have to be the story of your company, but it can be the story of your values, or it can be telling other stories that represent the values of your brand. And so, in our performances, we can exhibit our values. And I think that's something that people want to understand from brands right now. People are so demanding of brands in terms of what they represent. And I think that's a good thing. They want to consume things that align with their personal values and so brands can't just put up a commercial to buy a thing. Brands need to show a performance of their values. So by supporting certain causes, which they already do, that's one thing. But then by releasing content, that exhibits where they are in the market, how they view their relationships with their audience, how they view their relationship with their partners, that's also a crucial part of their brand communication, or it will be.

Graham Brown: I just googled ‘Performance’. I'm one of these geeks that likes to know the etymology of words. And I'm just looking at what it actually means. It means obviously the more modern meaning of performance is to act and sing on stage for example. But the older meaning of performance is, to come true. So that's really interesting. Isn't it. To bring about, to produce, to make something come true. And in a way, you talked about that sort of performance of a brand that you sort of talked about the authenticity part, as well. In some way, people think that well, authenticity and performance are somehow opposites. And yet here we are looking at them as one of the same. I was listening. There was a musician. I was listening to random videos on YouTube. And he was talking about a musician called Morrissey, who used to be in the Smith's. And his performances are quite legendary. And he was saying like in an interview because he's very awkward in an interview, he was saying that I don't perform. That’s me on the stage. It was very interesting because like, that is it. It's almost like, okay. It almost comes like background, like real performance is completely authentic. You know what it's like when you get on stage, very conscious of how you're dancing, but if you just kind of like to dance, like how you want. People really think, “Oh, that's really cool, this guy, he doesn't give a shit.”

Carl Javier: It's the real, you become real. So I want to drop a music reference too because I was watching Bruce Springsteen's Apple movie and he was saying the beauty of song creation was that and song creation with a band is that you take something that doesn't exist in the world and it's only an idea in his head. And then he talks to his band and suddenly it's a piece of art that exists by their performance of it. It is made manifest. He uses the word made manifest. That's so cool.

Graham Brown: Love it

Carl Javier: And so if we connect it to brands. Brand values are just words. Brands are about integrity or freedom or whatever. That doesn't mean anything until brands act and perform those values. And again, like the podcasts and their storytelling, the way that they frame their narrative, I really feel like there's value in the fact that, unlike other media, like say a commercial where you got 30 seconds or a minute to frame that narrative. I mean, how many people are going to do an Apple Ridley Scott commercial? Like how many of those even exist that make manifest a brand's values? But if you frame it within the context of larger conversations, which are made available by podcasting. It's a win.