Graham Brown: Welcome to The Age Of Audio. My name is Graham Brown from the award-winning podcast agency Pikkal & Co. The Age Of Audio is a series of conversations with thought leaders and change makers in the world of audio that's podcasts, radio, and social audio converging with big data to create engaging and authentic content for a new generation of listeners.
I remember when you got the Richard Branson gig a long time ago now.
Nathan Chan: Yay.
Graham Brown: Eight, seven or eight years ago. So at the time I remember you as an Instagram based brand, that was quite, you were like one of the first brands I saw building themselves and Instagram, which is like quite, I didn't really understand that at the time. I'm a bit older. You see some not of that generation, but you got it and you started building it. And I saw that growth. And now obviously building out your podcast as well. So maybe we can kick off Nathan by talking about how podcasting is for you in terms of growing Foundr and also your personal journey?
Nathan Chan: Really interesting journey right. I started the Foundr podcast a year after launching the magazine. So that was late 2014, I think. And the reason that I launched the podcast was because I was doing these interviews for the magazine and recording them in audio format and embedding them in the magazine, so people could read the interview or listen to the full thing in audio while interactive in the magazine. And a good friend of mine, our now head of marketing at Foundr. I said, oh, look, I'm thinking about starting a podcast and he said, oh, well, that's cool. And I said, I've got all these awesome interviews that I've collected from the magazine. But I said, I'm worried that people will be offended, if I release them into the world for free when people are subscribing to the magazine and he said, look, I'll challenge you, launch it, see what happens and see what the kickback looks like, and if you get heaps of pushback, then you can shut away, shut it down, or stop doing it, and if you don't get any keypad enough happens and you keep going with it, maybe you're onto something. And I launched it and yeah, no one said anything. So then this kind of idea around how we can take an interview and turn it into more than one piece of content started and we lay it in video over time, but for a long time, we didn't do video and podcasts are so hot right now, but back then when I started the Foundr podcast, what seven years ago, like I thought podcasts were hot then, like it's crazy to think around how much more every day acceptance and just everyday use, you've got Spotify too. Things like Spotify connected into people's cars now, right? Like it's crazy, you can set up your account so you can keep listening to music or podcasts or whatever. And then you see the rise of all these different brands now developing podcast networks as a form of media or a media play to build audiences and communities like you look at Barstool sports and I'm like incredibly inspired, in terms of a modern day media company now, all these media companies they all start with one and they editorial they're just video or, but now they're all going an audio play. So for us at Foundr, what's been really powerful to answer your question is this idea of starting with the interview in audio format and then spreading that out and using these incredible interviews, these incredible stories with some of the greatest entrepreneurs of our generation, it's really been able to build the brands and, the podcast is just one piece but it's been a big channel for us because there's something really intimate about audio, you have to listen and it's just you and that other person and it's like that person, you're a fly on the wall in the conversation, or that person is speaking to you and they're telling you as if you were speaking to a friend on the phone versus a video, while video is incredibly an powerful format, and is a great trust builder and relationship builder as well. You can often get distracted or it's a different level of focus when you're listening to audio versus watching a video. It depends on the setting and the environment, right? So we've actually found something you might find interesting is some of our biggest students or biggest customers that enroll in our programs or, become super fans of what we do, a lot of them all listened to the podcast quite heavily, which I also find very interesting.
Graham Brown: What do you think are the drivers for that? Why do you think they became super fans because of the podcast? Will super fans consume the podcast? What do you think the relationship is ?
Nathan Chan: Because of the podcast.
Graham Brown: That's where they could go deeper.
Nathan Chan: So much value, like we've got now over like almost 400 episodes, and some of these people we speak to don't give time to many people. Like their time is their greatest asset and we can get like half an hour, sometimes even 45 minutes on this person and, what they share their experiences, their lessons, like it's just gold man. So yeah, it's definitely because of just listening and just consuming. And it's not about me though, like it is, but it isn't, It's about the person that's listening versus I'm not telling you, and this is what I've learned. What is that subject? What is found that they can share with you? So it's like a gift that we're giving and if you listened to the Foundr podcast, Like the 400 odd episodes that probably average 40 minutes such as say sub an hour, an episode that's 400 hours with the content. That's at least what this is like 30 days where the whole month's worth of interviews. That would be in some cases better than doing an MBA.
Graham Brown: Cheaper, for sure.
Nathan Chan: Cheaper it's free, but like you would learn way more in many cases, right? From the wealth of knowledge you'd get from all of these founders. So yeah, it has helped us grow massively.
Graham Brown: It seems you focus a lot on learning and obviously that's a big part of your business model is like educating the community and giving them information and tools. How has it been for yourself, Nathan, as it hosts one versus episode 400, what would you say has been the changes, I'm sure you didn't get it right off [inaudible].
Nathan Chan: Nah, and it was shocking and to be honest with you, only until recently, we've been going really hard, like the past six months on Pre-production that our interviews are getting better and better and better, and we're seeing better growth from the podcast, which is amazing. That's been really interesting, like we interviewed the founder of Airbnb and the pre-production there was awesome.
Graham Brown: What would you do if you like storyboarding and things like this, what would be pre production for you?
Nathan Chan: First and foremost, we've got like a next level producer that is just incredible at telling stories and they go so deep on the research and they're very clear on the outcome and the journey we want to take people on. And then while I'm doing the interview, I've got the person here on this screen, in the studio, and then I've got another screen up here, where it's got all my questions and this per my producer, our producer, Charlie, he's like behind the camera and he's listening to the interview and he's like typing up different questions or go through this one, go for that one. So they're like tag teaming together on this interview, like just to make it amazing and yeah versus me waking up at 7:00 AM rolling out of bed, looking at Wikipedia on these grades and they just try to make it after why? Because it just got that much going, cause I'm trying to run the company. So where I'm going with this is, yeah, look, there's a world where in the next 12 months, I don't want to be the host of that show and I want to find someone else to do it and we starting to build out a bit of a network, in terms of learning, it's been game-changing man, like I'm downloading these people's brains. So it's only natural that, one month's worth of incredible goals, like incredible lessons and just timeless experiences, incredible stories shared, like that have been downloaded into my brain. And it's only natural that I'm going to get some sort of unfair advantages to apply that to building Foundr.
Graham Brown: How was it for yourself in terms of your storytelling? Because there's always the challenges and if you're a host and you're listening, you're absorbing all of this stuff. You also have you're the CEO and you're the founder of Foundr and you're all very much the brand that people know it to be. Even though you have an amazing team around you, you still have most purposes, the experience.
Nathan Chan: Virgin Richard Branson [inaudible] the same thing.
Graham Brown: He's what people understand him to be. Right? It's that personal touch? How has it been for your storytelling? Because that's a key part I mean, I heard Richard Branson stay the entrepreneurs, fundamentally our storytellers. How was it for you being a host, listening to stories, has your storytelling changed? Have you evolved how you tell stories about Foundr and about yourself?
Nathan Chan: I haven't never really thought about that if I'm being honest with you. But one thing I can tell you is, I've definitely got better at asking better questions and it's definitely helped me find a way to tune my gut. Could you speak to these people if you're on the spot you want to be present, because you are speaking to incredibly accomplished people, right. And you don't want to look like an idiot so you gotta be listening, you've gotta be present, you've gotta be able to engage,. You've got to be able to take them on a journey as well, just as much as the listener. So you gotta be able to be sharp and go, okay, let's explore that more, or Where do you get that from? It comes from cultivating presence, cultivating your gut, getting better at asking more powerful questions because that's what leadership is, a big part of it is what questions are you asking. The better the question, the better the answer. So, yeah, I haven't really thought about the storytelling pace, but it's definitely helped me as well to be a better person to be interviewed. If somebody is interviewing me, I know how to do a good interview. And I know that sounds arrogant, but like I know, cause I've done so many now what a great outcome looks like, how much depth is this person giving, how much vulnerability, how unique or interesting is the story that they're telling? Is it like, out of this world or is it just vanilla or are they giving you short answers or like, All of that kind of stuff, like I know those hot buttons. So in terms of selling Foundr selling what we've done yet definitely has helped.
Graham Brown: I like your point about presence as well, being present then I've heard people talk about this. I've experienced this myself. I have done 1,500 podcasts, myself, a lot produced for other people though, sitting in and being present is something that there's a Metro awareness. Isn't it that you learn when you're talking to somebody and oh God, what am I going to ask next? I've got to get to the next question. That's okay, that's really interesting. Let's go there. What do you do to cultivate that? Do you have those Zen moments in podcasting with you, with somebody and thinking, well, this is really happening and this is really cool. Do you get that as a flow?
Nathan Chan: Yeah, Those are the best. You jump off the interview and you're just like, wow. And I think back to my IT support days before Foundr and I was fixing papers, computers crawled under the desk. So then, five, six years later, I was like, here I am and I'm speaking to one of the richest people in the world or whatever, the story is and it's just wow, that was such incredible work and you just get this incredible high and rush, eric experience. It's so cool. Like it's a bit, and I'm prepared to give all that up because I think someone can do a better job than me and I think I want to be a better CEO than I am a small piece of the Foundr product.
Graham Brown: Interesting.
Nathan Chan: And I believe that my time could be better spent helping more people grow the brand, creating cool stuff, doing that versus creating content and being on the tools, it's actually one of the last things that I'm on the tools on. So yeah, that's a whole nother piece of the puzzle, but yeah, to answer your question yeah. There's some incredible times where I'm like, wow, this is amazing. And how do you cultivate presence? Ooh, that's a tricky one. I think first, even acknowledging that you can be a better interviewer, like how present you are and the more that you even acknowledge that in of itself, and just keep refining, your got to re refining, just that confidence in trusting okay, That I want to ask that. Just ask it, just go, just ask it doesn't matter, who cares? What's the worst can happen, like building that confidence as well, really helps.
Graham Brown: Do you, I mean, on that point about confidence, how does it compare? I should say podcasting versus stage?
Nathan Chan: So I don't like talks anymore on stage. Once again comes back to life. Whereas my time is best spent, I think on the stage, it's a bit trickier because everyone's looking at you and you have an audience. Podcasts are easy, because you can hide behind the microphone. You don't even have to turn on the video. I didn't turn on the video until now. It's one of my biggest regrets. Like I interviewed, I can see one of your books there, Tim Ferris, right? Yeah. I interviewed Tim, and I wish that I had, even if it was in my parents' basement, but even if the interview is in my parents' basement, cause it was like 6:00 AM in the morning, and I wasn't living with my housemate and I had to leave my PR,[inaudible]. My housemates had them with my parents for a little bit. Like I should have recorded that.
Graham Brown: With the recorder that night, and that's the stuff of legends though, the Amazon, the first office, all those kinds of.
Nathan Chan: Yeah. And so you've got Eric [inaudible] once again, only wish I had just recorded the video. I bet nothing changed with COVID where it was socially accepted to be at your home or you didn't have to be in person to do so. And, I was never prepared. So, I did some of this stuff I probably take for granted, some of the people I get to speak to me but that's a problem in of itself because I'm so caught up trying to run the business and so how's confidence changed? Look, I think, hiding behind the microphone is much easier than going on stage and doing a presentation. And it's not some hiding, but like you could perceive it as hiding, right. Or it could be perceived as I've got my camera off, and that's how I perceived it. Honestly, like I spoke to Tim Ferriss, I was incredibly nervous. And I thought I don't want to share my face, I don't want to show my parents basement. I'm going to turn on the video and I'll just say it, which is my standard line. Hey yeah, look, this is audio only just, worried about the internet and stuff and yeah, like I just roll with it, but it's so much easier to do a podcast with someone that you are really nervous around when they can't see you.
Graham Brown: It does. I mean, I was just curious cause I think there were a lot of people, podcasting is like a zone of control. Isn't it? Do you feel comfortable with it? And a lot of people view themselves as socially awkward in some situations like networking events, for example. And they may be good on stage, but they may feel a little bit in control, but on podcasts they can be really in control. And I found it's a bit like the karaoke effect, isn't it? That some people, once they get in that zone of comfort ,that they can be really good at it. And I think often the people who are the best podcast hosts aren't necessarily the best on stage or the best public speakers or the best, or any of that. They're just really good at listening.
Nathan Chan: Agreed. And it depends what type of show is it right? If it's an interview, it's how strong they are as a conversationalist right. How strong is that person at conversing in entertaining, extracting gold, like pulling it out of that person, if it's an interview, right? Like it's really about, the key to being a great conversationalist is what you don't say. So, how good are they at being present, listening, cultivating that presence, like capturing an old one, then taking people on a journey, but yeah, If you're on a stage or you're a presenter, a public speaker, you're working the room controlling, it's totally different. But then it's a different setting too, but look, I agree with you that makes a hundred percent sense. Some of the best podcasters wouldn't be strong on stage at all It gives them hope as well.
Graham Brown: And new generation. Hmm, podcasters. Hey man, this is really good. I think we've got some great content here Nathan, is there anything else that we missed out that you think was important for that? Or did we cover most of the basis?
Nathan Chan: Yeah, I'd like to just share with you just around like where I see audio going and where we're investing in it as a media company.
Graham Brown: Please.
Nathan Chan: So, as a modern day media company, I believe you need to be helping your community from the three different learning modalities, audio, video, and written. And so for us, we want to have a high traffic, editorial, basically a Wikipedia on everything you need to know on how to start or grow a business, which will lead to online school. And then on the video side, how are we going to have one of the largest YouTube channels to help entrepreneurs start and grow a business? And then on the audio side, how do we build like a really large podcast network with incredible shows? Everything you need to know doesn't have to be everything, but just, but layer less kind of Wikipedia, but like just incredible conversations, incredible things that people don't talk about and just really an incredible place. We have so many different shows and I think it can be a big driver to grow the brand, to grow the standard brand and introduce different personalities. So we launched our first show this year, about six months ago, called 'Becoming A Fan'' called From zero To Foundr. Basically, we're just interviewing people in our community that have gone through any well paid programs, right. And their success stories like these are people in the trenches everyday people like you, or I, because I think one biggest piece of advice I get is Nathan. It is awesome, These guests you interviewed, but it's hard to relate to. We wouldn't have another show and I'm not the host that show our community manager Molly's and now we're looking to work on the third show who be probably with one of our course instructors and then we'll work on a fourth show and we'll continue to look to either acquire shows or talents or identify talent and work with them and whatever capacity whether it's writing an article, doing an interview, creating a course, creating some content for us, like creating a podcast. It's just many different ways that we want to work with talent and that is the future for us. So, in the next two to three years, I see a world where we've got 15, 20 different shows, cross promoting each other and all talking on different areas of business and entrepreneurship, interesting engaging conversations, things to learn people sharing, incredible things. So, yeah, that's where I see us heading for a factor more like a podcast.
Graham Brown: Podcast Network Model?
Nathan Chan: Yep.
Graham Brown: And you were more in the sort of the talent you're giving the talent, all the operational platform to, they have an audience, I guess they bring the audience to your platform. Right? And they then have the content and you're really just helping, you've taken away all the heavy lifting for these guys. Right? Plugging them, right?
Nathan Chan: Correct We will be the distribution channel for them.
Graham Brown: Interesting. That is the modern media model, right. That has to be, and it's, it's quite an agile way of doing it rather than curating another form of content as well. With podcasts, you could probably do it quite easily In the sentence that the setup is quite low for these guys.
Nathan Chan: Yeah. A hundred percent. So yeah, in many ways founders becoming a talent-based business, talent highlights talent and I see audio and podcasting a part of that because we tell stories, right.
Graham Brown: Absolutely.
Nathan Chan: Like at Foundr we create futures and tell stories. We help someone change their life, change your life in some way, shape or form large-scale. They can build a successful business or whatever, they leave their job and start a business or whatever that we help impact them or whatever. All the way from, you look at one thing, like Google [Inaudible] that's how I do this all. . I would have found it now, sorry. So. Like the story piece is what we use to drive the growth of the brand, working with the talent, telling those stories of the talent.
Graham Brown: Yeah. you become the platform to give them a voice. You give them the tools as supposed to be the story yourself. Right? It's their story. You give them the megaphone to do that.
Nathan Chan: Correct. And we don't break news, no news.
Graham Brown: No, there's too much of that.
Nathan Chan: Yeah.
Graham Brown: It's very interesting. I'm really fascinated by that journey and it's very exciting to see this kind of evolution.
You've been listening to The Age Of Audio with me, Graham Brown from the award-winning podcast agency, Pikkal & Co. To get access to all the audio conversations and book content for The Age Of Audio, go to www.theageofaudio.com. One more time. The age of audio.com.