Graham Brown: Welcome to The Age Of Audio my name is Graham Brown from the award-winning podcast agency Pikkal & Co. The Age Of Audio is a series of conversations with thought leaders and change makers in the world of audio that's podcast, radio, and social converging with big data to create engaging and authentic content for a new generation of listeners.
So where we are today in 2021 and when you started in podcasting, What's changed in terms of the conversations you're having with clients?
Traci Deforge: Right well, when we started podcasting, started produce a podcast and I started my impersonal podcast in 2016. The biggest question I was answering was what is a podcast, and I don't absolutely do not have to answer that question anymore. When I launched my podcast and then subsequently launched The podcast production company, there were about 350,000 episodes in apple podcasts. And today I think the latest numbers are a little over 2 million. So that is a major growth trajectory. In my history of 30 plus years in the marketing and media business, it's probably the fastest growing trajectory that I have seen ever in that condensed period of time. So the questions are now evolving from what is a podcast and how do I start a podcast to, should I do an audio and a video podcast? That's one of the questions we get asked frequently, but also once I launch a podcast, how do I get discovered by listeners? How do I engage the audience over a long period of time? How do I continue the conversation outside of the podcast, which is really one of the biggest criteria in being able to assist people in audience growth and monetization and marketing and distribution is to, for us actually to present that question is how can you continue the conversation outside of your podcast episode? Because those are the real factors in having a more well-rounded marketing strategy, if you're using your podcast as a marketing tool, which primarily that's my area of focus, I really enjoy, love and feel very strongly about podcasting being not only just a content creation tool, but also a marketing tool for scalability and for the growth of businesses.
Graham Brown: How do I promote and how do I communicate with my audience questions are key right now we've gone from, it seems that there was a time and still, it seems to be very popular is that when you publish a podcast, that they create the audio grams, the snippets, and they push those out on social media. I think a lot of people whilst that's obviously a way of reaching an audience, they feel that's the way of growing the audience. So that's the way of reaching new audiences and publishing with social media is only just a small part of it. There seems to be a lot more that people are discovering outside these activities that they have to do on top of that, like talking to other podcast hosts and cross promotion and things like that. What are you finding, that's working that's really emerged in the last couple of years in terms of growing audiences?
Traci Deforge: Well, I think, if you've stepped back from that question and first answer the question of what is the most strategic way to leverage my podcast and start with that in terms of, I want to use it as a content creation tool based on my content creation, then what are you going to do with it? So we talk a lot about repurposing content first and foremost. So it's not just about your point, audio grams and posting the episode on social is the first step. It's not the last step. It's the first step. And then taking that piece of content that you create one time and having that piece of content transcribed and then having it created for your show notes, summaries, and then looking at to expand it further are : Can you turn it into an industry trade article?, Can you position yourself as an expert by doing that by being efficient by taking that transcript and then creating it into a blog post?, Can you create an ebook for a downloadable lead generation. And it's not really a matter of can you, because you can, it's just a matter of what type of bandwidth do you have as an individual doing these things on your own and allocating a budget to have them done for you, or some sort of combination of that, because just releasing the episode and an audiogram to give people a snippet and a taste of what that episode is about, that's not enough to keep people engaged over a long period of time and to really see scalable audience growth. So, you really want to be able to efficiently and cost effectively use that podcast content for other areas to either position yourself and uplevel your business and your position in the category space of your business, but also to turn it into monetizable nuggets of re-purposing like I was mentioning eBooks, online courses, webinars, things like that. So really having the podcast or think outside of what happens when they show up to the mic, and what does that look like for them in a way that's sustainable for them personally and professionally. We also get asked, is it too late to start a podcast, which I think you have one of the best answers for we've exchanged notes about that, which is we'll take a look at how many Twitter accounts there are, how many YouTube accounts there are and the answer is absolutely no, it is not too late. It's actually prom time.
Graham Brown: Do you think it's getting harder to grow audiences on that note? The fact that there are a lot of people now podcasting, and we're seeing this, this polarization of the industry, that there is a lot of people who are new and at entry level and like you say, maybe they could be a one man band effectively, or they could be working with an agency or you have on the other end, this injection of resources into large scale productions, like the one degrees and the [inaudible]
Traci Deforge: Exactly and I think it's more about being discerning about why you're starting the podcast in the first place. I mean, in any industry of any type or any launch of any type, you're going to have a competitive landscape. That's just part of doing business, being in business and the saturation of marketing messaging in general is a competitive landscape. So podcasts become one aspect of that competitive landscape. So the question to me really is how can you just CERN whether or not launching a podcast and investing in time and resources that it takes to grow a podcast is what is the priority for you and where you are right now? And if the answer is yes, then the question then becomes, okay, so how are you going to change the conversation about and utilize podcasting to change the conversation? and set yourself apart from the competition? And my answer to that is figuring out why you want to do the podcast in the first place, making sure it is a fit for the end game that you want out of your podcasts and then niche, niche again and then niche again. And an example I often use for this is that if you are going to start a podcast, let's say, for example, speaking to women entrepreneurs, well, that is a broad based topic and that there are several podcasts out there that are speaking to women entrepreneurs. So then take that and then narrow that down again, so women entrepreneurs who are in the tech space, for example, and so then take that and niche it down again and women entrepreneurs in tech, and then maybe specifically in tech startups are getting venture capitalists for tech startups. There's something that just takes you from this broad base, I mean, you can even back it up further and go entrepreneur podcast, women entrepreneur podcast, women in tech podcasting and then episodes can then be more specific in terms of venture capitalists and startups and how they run and things like that. So I think if you're going to identify what your niche is, make sure you then just niche it down and niche it down again, because that's where you're going to get discovered instead of trying to compete in a sea of categories around just entrepreneurship.
Graham Brown: There's a fear, isn't it? That is why niche it right down, that I'm going to end up with a very small audience. So the natural reaction is to go big, go broad. How do you deal with that? Because that must be something you need you're wrestling with as an advisor.
Traci Deforge: Well, I don't wrestle with it for this very reason. And I think that there is an underestimation, if you will, about how powerful a vertical niche can be and how engaging an audience can be in podcasting. So if you're talking about typical marketing strategies and traditional marketing methods, yes there is a fear and a risk around that because you don't want to alienate. For example, you want to be able to be all things to all people, but the reality is that a, you can't be all things to all people, but if you clearly define who you are and to what people, those people will show up for you, and those people will really really get aligned with you, your message and they will benefit from what it is that you're saying. Because a lot of times, if you're just having a broad based conversation, Then there's not a way to really give tactical takeaway change-making content. Whereas if you're digging into a vertical niche, yes, you may have a smaller slice of listeners, but those are going to be quality listeners versus quantity. And those are then the people that will convert into doing business with you. And like I was saying, or, and, or continuing the conversation with you outside of the podcast. So, podcasting is the one medium that is a pull medium versus a push medium. And that's why vertical niches and highly engaged, targeted audiences are beneficial in podcasting because they are choosing to show up and spend the time with you, they are making a conscious decision to choose, to listen to your podcast, watch your podcast, engage in your podcasts instead of someone else's. And that's a really strong statement for a return on investment in terms of people's time. If you think about your content and what's in it for your listener versus what's in it for you and you are providing really good quality content with really good quality production, because that's second, not even by only a hairline, then you are going to be able to continue to build and grow that audience and they're going to show up for you and be very incredibly loyal and aligned with whatever products and services that you're offering or that you're affiliated with.
Graham Brown: How do we then talk to and engage that audience? A big part of what I've seen in the success of podcasts I've been talking to on this project is that even small ones, the one's with highly engaged audience that are actively working with them almost as if it was a radio show back in the day where they talk to you, they don't talk to you guys or the audience, we are today very personalized and very direct. What advice could we give because I mean, giving them some context, often brands, individuals start from the position of this is what I want to talk about.
Traci Deforge: Sure. Well, I think there are a couple of ways to address that. The first is you, as I have a very strong background decades of broadcast radio, sales and management experience programming and everything that kind of comes into that and the differentiation between the talk show host on the radio versus the podcast host is the talk show host on the radio does have to do a more of a broad based approach in that it could be a focus show on women in tech, for example, but you're still going to have to stay within the clocks of the format, you're still going to have to be mindful of FCC regulations and you're still going to have to fall within some of those advertiser unspoken advertiser provisions if you will, with podcasting, you have so much more freedom and flexibility and formatting, I think is probably the first area i would talk about in terms of response to your question, because you can choose how you want to format your show, and by doing that, you can choose how you want to talk to your audience and then engage with them post episode. So for example, if you are doing a primarily guest oriented show, you can set your podcast up to at the beginning, maybe you talk through breaking news at that point then you evolve into the, really more in depth conversation with your guest on a specific topic, and then transition before you close into a segment that provides a very specific knowledgeable focused piece of content. So maybe it's tips and takeaways, maybe it's, if you're doing a health and wellness podcast, perhaps, maybe it's a nutrition nugget, maybe it's a tech tip again, to fall back on our original example. But the beauty in that is, is that you showcase that you are current as an expert in the industry with the breaking news, you have really been able to extract a good quality Q and A content out of your expert guests, and then you're providing something tangible and actionable that the listener gets as an ROI of their time that they can take beyond that episode and either implement those actions right away, or really feel competent and comfortable and the services that you provide outside of being a podcaster. So maybe you're a consultant, maybe you are a coach, maybe you are an author, an artist, any of those ways that this podcast episode has really shown to your listener, Hey, I'm the real deal, if you want to work with me, or if you want to engage with me after this episode, here's my call to action and then that leads to a longer term engagement and relationship that you're building outside of the podcast.
Graham Brown: I think that's great advice. I see a lot of hosts who maybe, because they don't know, or maybe because it's a lack of confidence who really focus only on interviewing and they just ask questions and when I speak to them, I'm saying that if you're just going to ask questions and make sure that at least you give something of yourself away, because the audience always connects with the host. I feel people miss that point, they feel that the guest is the main draw for a podcast, but the reason I'm coming back is the host right?
Traci Deforge: I think that's really great advice.
Graham Brown: Yeah, I'm just talking about how we get that across to business people and corporates who in some ways, a little bit shy of being vulnerable and opening up, talking about their personal views or even having a view to that point.
Traci Deforge: Yeah I think sometimes you can use the fact that your host is [inaudible] scapegoat, not to leverage your views and they can make a mistake in that way, or it can be an asset if they are qualified enough as an interviewer to really extract the opinions and valuable insights from the guest. I think the beautiful thing about podcasting is it's a low barrier entry. The challenge about podcasting is it's a lower barriered entry. So, if you are becoming a podcast host, that's going to rely on Q and A then study other podcast hosts, study some of the best radio show hosts that are out there, listen to how they interview, listen to the way they position questions and most importantly, pay attention to how podcast hosts listen, because the host that listens is often a better host and are better interviewer than a host that doesn't listen and is trying to always make it about their opinion. And I think if you really go into your podcast with the mindset of not what's in it for you and not what's in it for your business, but what is in it for the person who's listening to the podcast and always look at it through the lens of what's in it for my listener, what am I providing for them as a value for the time that they're investing with me? And I don't think that most podcasts hosts initially think through the process in that way and really see the interview process as a skill because it is, and the more skilled that you can be if that's the format that you choose, the better your podcast episodes will be, but there are so many other creative infusions that you can put into your format. So really considering when you're getting ready to launch your show, not just who's the most high profile guest that I can get on my show to get me the most listeners. Cause that's just one episode, one guest, and you could get super lucky and they could share it out in the way that you want, or you could have this amazing guest and they get busy and they don't even put it out to their followers and then you're like lost because that was your whole kind of drive. But more so thinking about the format of the show , how can I showcase my expertise and the services that my business provides because I am an expert in the space and let the guest be a compliment to that, not the forward driving component of it.
Graham Brown: Yeah, wonderful advice. Love it. Who do you think is getting this right Traci in your personal opinion, the hosts formats, even that are really pushing the envelope in podcasting at the moment?
Traci Deforge: Sure short. Well, I mean, in terms of radio, there are so many hosts that have transferred their skillset, the Dave Ramsey's of the world, that have taken their radio shows and converted and transitioned them really well into podcasts. One of the hosts, I think, just does an amazing job, I think Erica Mandy of the newsworthy. She was in the broadcast business and then she wasn't really, I think I don't want to misinterpret her bio, I think she's fantastic host but what I think I understand about her bio is that she was in the journalism business and wasn't really accelerating her career as quickly as she had hoped and then she started her daily news podcast and she has done an amazing job with that. And so I think probably in terms of looking at and studying radio shows and how they built their shows, look at some of the people that have been doing it the longest and been doing it the most consistently, because it is consistency that is a critical factor in the quality of your podcast and building the audience growth. And then also look at the people who aren't doing it very well. That's the other thing, I mean, a lot of times people think because they had such a great morning show on the radio, for example, or had such a great AM talk show that's just going to automatically transition into podcasting, and I think it's often a big mistake that the broadcast radio companies are making. And they're just taking a show that was built and designed and clocked out and scheduled for traditional terrestrial radio, taking that, recording it, stripping out the commercials and then uploading it as a podcast. And that doesn't always translate that. Well, like you need to really think about podcasting as the medium that it is, which is on demand and very intimate, very personal and edit those shows, to then convert into a viable podcast versus just taking it in and stripping it out and uploading it because they're not as effective converting in the way that I think people assume that it will.
Graham Brown: Yeah, Just reformatting on that.
Traci Deforge: Right. Barely even reformatting it. I mean, there's certain things that because of the advertising model of traditional radio, people can't necessarily have the commercials in their allocated spots and run them outside of the radio show. So really a lot of times, all they're doing, like I said, is just stripping out those ads and just uploading the audio without any further thought around it. And that's unfortunately not an effective podcasting strategy because it may sound, look and feel a lot like a radio show, but podcasting has gained so much growth and inspiration and engagement because it is different than traditional radio and I think it's important to embrace that.
Graham Brown: Yeah, there's a lot to learn I feel about radio that we can learn from the formats in the same way that radio, the hosting in the skill part is something we can learn a lot from and the idea what has been eye opening for me, which probably would have been just second nature to you is that you speak to the person as an individual, the audience, and you know who they are and they have a name and their age and in what they're doing in the morning while still listening to drive time and all these kinds of things and what really annoys them, how you can get them on the phone, calling in all these kinds of things. And podcast hosts tend to, I find because it's quite new, not even knowing you have that, they haven't even thought about this stuff. They are just thinking, I just want to start a podcast in many ways. It's fine. This is how we can start and get going. And for two plus million podcasts out there, this is an entry point, but that will over time evolve right? And the good ones will rise.
Traci Deforge: Yes, the cream will rise to the top and a lot of that will have to do with the quality of the audio and the video that is used to produce the episode, because like I said, second, only to content and only by hairline, second is good quality audio and production, because we often say it's if you could be creating the most intriguing fascinating content there is, but if it hurts to listen to it, or it's hard to watch it, then people will not come back to it because it's human nature. They just, they even, I'm at such a subliminal psychological level. They don't even maybe understand why they're not coming back, but they just aren't. It's not comfortable listening.
Graham Brown: That's the word comfortable.
You've been listening to The Age Of Audio with me graham Brown from the award-winning podcast agency Pikkal & Co. To get access to all the audio conversations and book content for The Age Of Audio, go to www.theageofaudio.com. One more time. The age of audio.com .