Graham Brown: As I understand, it captivates your main gig, right? You've gone from podcasting into software. What was the sort of journey like for you? Cause I understand you started as an agency and then now you're an app developer in theory, not an easy switch. Tell us a little bit about that first.
Mark Asquith: Well, it was actually quite a straightforward one for us weirdly. Cause we were all the content that I've produced, , outside of the podcast industry content that I'm a bit more known for now. And over the last four or five years, all the content I've produced was just because I wanted to produce it. I just enjoyed it. So podcasting was a medium for me that I was producing content within whilst I was running the agency, but the agency was a very specifically set up agency. We were a full service agency, but we had these different departments, we had a brand and graphics department and that was led by inaudible and he, we worked on some amazing brand products and some brand projects and just did some amazing stuff with some really big brands. And we had a web arm, we'd build whatever it was, websites and, everything from a two grand website, right up to a 150 grand piece of kit for again, for a blue chip offer an organization that needed something like that. But I led it outside of those two arms, we had the printing arm and the photography business and, it was a two full service thing. And I led of two elements of the business. Which became something very specific. So I led up the digital marketing side of things and also led up the product development, where we'd build products for external companies. So like building software and, marketing that software and making it sell is not really anything new. It's sort of one of those things where we're just doing for the people. And then towards the later years, of the agency before I sort of decided that I wasn't too interested in a client services model anymore. We were, building a product division and podcasting products were a large part of that. This is before anyone was really making podcasting products. There was a couple of the incumbent hosting platforms, but nothing else, I remember when inaudible was a startup and then clam has been and gone. And, I remember when all of these things,
Graham Brown: Whatever happened to that. That was a blast from the past. That was the bookmark inaudible. Wasn't it.
Mark Asquith: He was great. Yeah. Parviz and the team were brilliant. we actually got involved in potentially taking that over, but it wasn't the right fit. And it was one of those things that was just ahead of its time. The tech stack was, it was decent, but the audience wasn't there. And actually, that's all leads me to where we are today. Just quite a nice segway in because a lot of what I did, like my first ever idea in the podcast and is now an idea that we've just got an alpha six years later, seven years later, which is the interaction tech, the industry wasn't ready for it. It's like George Lucas doing the pre-calls that the CGI just about caught up still looks a bit sketchy now, but it just about caught up so that the industry was bizarre on that. So it's sort of to get into podcasting. For me, it was really a case of, wait a second, we've got all the skills we need to build anything that we want to build. So whilst we're creating this content why don't we just build some tools to help ourselves out, you know? And that we bridged into the industry by making a sort of a managed WordPress platform that was sort of a bridging product, which we still run today. Podcast websites, it's the biggest and the original WordPress management service for podcasts. And then we sort of extended and took a little bit of time thinking about the industry and getting to know everyone. And, then we came out with some other SAS products and software as a service product. So yeah, that's the journey in a nutshell, dude, it's perhaps not as big a jump as it sounds from an agency, because my role was the product inaudible.
Graham Brown: When you were building out that SAS products or those SAS products in the early days, tell me about some of the ones that didn't make it. I'm always interested in the ideas that you had that maybe were too ahead of their time, or just, we're just not very good because my disclaimer is I've made loads of those things that failed. And I know when you're building out sort of validating products, it's like one in ten. But, when you're rapidly validating the survival rates are quite low. Well, what was it like for you? Did you have a lot of products or was it just like, we're gonna build this one and that's gonna be it.
Mark Asquith: Well, every one of them survived. That's the interesting thing that you get from intuition. The original product podcast websites that we partner with John and inaudible to your fire for that one that, well, we didn't have an audience in podcasting back then. So I remember ringing John up and just saying to him, look, dude, we can fulfill this. Do you want to market a little bit of it to your audience? And he was like, yeah, go and we'll kick the tires on it. And we had few kind of takes at that and it worked, from day one, it was making money, and then so. But we really put the time in to build intuition. At this point now, as we're talking today, our produce, what 13, 1400 episodes of podcasts, I've worked with tens of thousands of podcasters. But in particular, the big thing was pre-COVID and obviously post-COVID as well. The sheer amount of face time with podcasters is like I've spent and invested so much time and my own money in traveling the world to meet people. Like it's rare that I don't know someone in podcasting. And I'm talking 2013, 2014 when podcast movement was like 500 people or 200 people or some in-depth, I was speaking at those events and I was, spending time or put 2:00 AM and, looking like crap jet-lagged and doing the time in getting to know everyone. So now obviously everyone's getting into the space and someone called me an OG the other day I was like, yeah. But then the more I think about it, I'm signed to feel my talks like, nah, no, no, no, no, no. My hair is gray man, but I don't want to own it. I'm going to get it. I probably will do. But what's weird is that I'm starting to find myself saying things that like Robin Todd, you know to good, highly respected guys in podcasting from blueberry and Libsyn, both friends and people I've stopped to know my years. Yeah, they are both great guys, like say a lot for me that they're both just very, very nice, good people that love the industry. But I'm starting to find myself saying stuff that they were saying like back in 2016. Now I catch myself saying stuff.
Graham Brown: He was like 15 years, right? 16 years old with that one product. I mean, blueberry was like the OG hosting platform. I seem to remember anyway. That was like the four.
Mark Asquith: They are the OGs that said that. That's the thing. Isn't it, there they are the OG. So when someone calls me, I'm like, no, give you a head start, but. Yeah, that's it. Isn't it. But it's sad. I know it's fascinating, man. It's certainly interesting to see, but yeah, now I am back to the point, these things, they've done all right, because we had the intuition, and we were fortunate enough that, there are only a couple of ways that you can get an edge in an industry and having a network and an intuition, two of those fairly significant differentiators. We were very fortunate to have them both.
Graham Brown: What was the intuition, the pain point that you identified then that people had from your, you were seeing in the conversations and what was that, that you said it right. We need to fix this specifically.
Mark Asquith: Well, these more range of things, my brain sees patterns. The things that other people's brains don't see, like strategically, that's how my brain works. It's not, that's not me blowing my own trumpet. That's just how my brain works. I've got a lot of things that I'm crap out, but that's one thing that I'm a writer and when I apply that with the team, we carrying and this fantastic team like I am not the talent in the team, these guys are the talent, the people that do the work every single day to build the things that I say, wouldn't it be cool. But what I'm able to do and what we were able to do and continue to be able to do is say, well, look, number one, we're producing podcasts everyday. Anything that we think wouldn't it be nice is probably a great idea. So we can validate, and we can go through that basic process, but really sort of our position has been not accepting what has gone before. So that intuition has really relied upon taking some in that has been a bit of a challenge, whatever, it might be, something like, how the heck do you promote your podcast when you're talking about it on your own podcast? A tiny example of this might be something like the single promotional link that we build into captivate is just free for everyone. You don't need to pay for a podcast or anything like that. It's just, you get a single promo link, and rather than saying, go and listen in XYZ, in Apple or Spotify or whatever. You just go ahead and share this one link. And it's tiny things like that, that we got ahead of. And it was just frankly because we saw it and we're like, why doesn't that exist? But the point is, if you do that 50 times, suddenly you've got a product that has got clear space between it and competitors, and everyone does that in their own way. There's no bad podcast hosting platform out there. There isn't, a lot of other people will say, we're better than XYZ like. I don't say that we're not better. We're just, we think differently to others. And it's about finding the fit. So yeah, I think intuition comes from two things. It comes from having produced that much of our own stuff, but also having the kind of balls in us to just say, screw that, let's just build this solution. Forget what everyone's saying. Let's just build it.
Graham Brown: What'd you do come on the analytic side with the hosting plan. What was your take on that, that other people weren't doing. Because while we say that everybody has their own take on it, let's face it analytics for the longest time in podcasts has been pretty crap. If you compare, I mean, yeah, fair enough its early days, but comparing it to what we have on the web, even with like free tools, like Google analytics, we're nowhere near are we, so what was your take on analytics for the average podcast and what are you doing and where do we need to go next with that?
Mark Asquith: I think there's two sides to that. I think side number one is that data is boring. It's what you do with the data that counts. And that's our approach. We captivate is our job is not to report data to you. Our job is to let you see the data but to actually inform you about what to do with the data. So that's the captivate approach to it. What can you do with this data that you have, whether it's downloads or some other metric in the future? Now that will always be our approach. But the second part of that puzzle is probably the bigger question. And the reason that podcast downloads and listens and streams and progressive downloads when you speak to Todd inaudible. Everything is very fragmented and yeah, sure, there are standards and yes, it's the early days. But the problem is that, unlike the web, we don't control every single piece of the puzzle. We can't do it's impossible. We could write our own RSS feed and start our own files on S3, but Apple and Overcast and all these other, Spotify, Google, they are the distribution channels. They won't necessarily allow us to get the data that we want to get because everything's proprietary to them so that they can then do more with it in the future. Of course, it is less. They're data companies, Spotify is not a music company it's a data company. There's nothing wrong with that because it's the tried business model that works. Look at Facebook and Twitter and Instagram and any company that pulls information from users and delivers it back to a creator is a data company. So the problem is this number one, the fragmentation, but number two, the relatively closed, I don't want to say closed ecosystem because it's not quite a closed ecosystem is getting that way, starting to become more fragmented when it comes to being closed, but each sort of tentacle of the ecosystem. So Overcast, Marco has his way of doing it and he's got a market share, but regardless of what you think he will do it his way. Is he beholden to users who care? He just does it his way. Spotify there one other tentacle, there are another distribution outlet they're doing it their way. So does apple, we've seen what's happened with Apple recently. Does not really served podcasters very well in terms of customer service recently. And, there are another tentacle we can't control that. They do their thing. So that's the problem is that whilst we completely want podcasting to be an open ecosystem, unless the consumption part of it is open as well then we're at the behest of those people, the distribution partners, the consumer apps. We're at the behest of those when it comes to analytics and tracking. So, it's a very, very nuanced challenge, we're talking, with our interaction startup, we're working on permission-based interaction, marketing, and engagement tools. We're an ad-served industry. We survive on ad revenue. That's not to say that we have to copy what every other ad served platform has done or every other ad-based industry has done, we can do something a little different. And I think when you add to the mix as well, there's one final piece of the challenge is that unlike every, I can't think of another industry. Okay. Unlike every other industry, podcasting believes it's open, thrives on control. So Spotify will make more money than anyone because they control their ecosystem. They've got the Apple model, the old apple model of controlling the entire supply chain if you like. So we believe we're open. The success is coming through closed channels and in order for revenue to flow control needs to be implemented. So what I'm talking about there is that advertisers want to control that incoming revenue. That's the key to big money is that there will only invest where they can see a return and where they can measure a return, but unlike every other industry podcasting fights that because we built an RSS and it's open and it's fair and it's cute, and it's cottagey, and it's lovely. That's fine. And I believe in that and when we, I was on Adam Curry's podcasting 2.0 show, a while ago, and we've talked about it and that needs to exist. But the solution to how we hit both of those problems, keeping it open, keeping it fair, but bringing in the levels of revenue that we need to bring in without the level of control that those bits of revenue require, that's the main problem. And that goes right back to the analytics. It goes right back to monetization. It goes right back to distribution and leveraging, the day-to-day person listening. Because the main kicker is that inaudible said to me, then I'm not allowed to, there are other players that will get involved on this that have got far more control over an audience than we have. And that's when it becomes a very big data play. And that's when analytics becomes, potentially get taken out of the hands of the podcaster of the open industry. And, I've written about this a couple of times, , this big versus indie podcasting, I'm starting to see this fracture, just widen in a big podcast in the Q code. The wonder is they're doing amazing work, but the create an amazing content with the pure intent of selling the IP for whatever movies, comic books, TV shows, there's not. And again, there's nothing wrong with that at all. But their requirements are different to the person that's recording and talking about their favorite boxes in their bedroom. So it's a hugely nuanced challenge. I know that's a big, deep answer, but very nuanced, man.
Graham Brown: Yeah. And like you say, there are still players who are, wait and see. I look at people at Amazon as well and think that if you look at the recruitment at the moment in Asia, I mean it's all Dunn's rewardable. So it's sort of done through this blanket of being an audiobook play, but the recruiting podcast acquisition manager is effectively no talent recruitment. And you look at those guys, is that well, there's somebody else that will have a go at that data problem as well. You can take Amazon, you can import that massive content base into podcasting, and obviously, they acquired Wondery, but their podcast plays really nothing at the moment. And then you think about, here's the interesting fact. And let's see what you think about this Mark, is that you talked about the data play. There is a very interesting, study coming out of, I think it's MIT where one of the, a there's basically been running this study. They have this device it's called the ear it's EAR, right? Basically, they wear this device and it switches on randomly five times during the hour. It's not controlled. It's not, predetermined the time that it comes on. And it records like 30 to 50 seconds of your speech and then turns off. And what happens is it's all uploaded, and then the clever research has got to work on all that data from everybody in the study. And then they say, what do people talk about? So what they want to do is work out what are people talking about? Day-to-day like normal people in their mundane conversations. And they say, there's a couple of interesting facts that came out of it. One was that people just talk about shit all the time. It's like, mundane, TV, food, weather, whatever. We all know that, but the second point is that we actually talk as a species, 40% of our waking lives, which is fascinating. Because you think about that we're actually talking a hell of a lot more than we're on social media. Now think about what that means to Facebook and what that means to Spotify. Until now we never recorded those conversations. Very rarely. I mean, occasional podcast. But now you have social audio. Now you have this boom in podcasting. Now you have this opportunity to, in some way, like in a black mirror style episode to collate all of human conversation and all the data points that go into that as well. So when we think about data, you think that actually, like you say, this may go beyond the control of individual podcasts. We're opening up a brave new world or where we'd be going with this. What do you think about that? What do you think this sort of future is in terms of podcasting and data.
Mark Asquith: Well, I think that facet of it, collating and curating everything is terrifying. I think that's something that we should very carefully think about, but I don't see it necessarily that it's related to content as an entertainment form. I think that's more related to gathering behavioral insights, which then drive recommendations inside psychoanalysis on what we really want to see when we want to see it so that, the very thing that these guys all want which is more money can be accessed more easily. This is really analysis on behavioral science, it's marketing underpinning the principles of the next generation of marketing, which is terrifying, and we're all using Twitter spaces and we're using clubhouse and we're all using these sort of things. And, we're not necessarily looking at the T's and C's on what's going on with that. We're all using the Amazon echo. We're all using the Google Home, Apple home pod, a less of us are using that one but we're all giving our data to these voice assistance and just very willing to let them learn about us. And that's all it's for now. I'm not entirely sure that maps to audio is content. I think I went to Voice Con a bit ago and thought we were fortunate enough to do a bit of work with inaudible Media and just get to know Matt and Gary and the team when we were building productivity and captivate out and voice was one of those things that was at Voice Con. Really broken down into two or three different facets and it sort of, it kind of played in with my views on it, which are, there's voices and mechanism for interaction and control there's voice as a mechanism for there to gather him. But there's also the receipt of voice as an entertainment factor, that doesn't change from the radio days. It's just, we can get to it more now. So whilst I think it's fascinating, Podcasting is largely unrelated to that, but obviously, yes, veered, you have audio, it runs the gamut, that's just one facet of it. And I think it's interesting because things like the ability to do sentiment analysis, internal analysis, and you start to look at the way that people interpret things. Like there was someone on Twitter the other day, they were kicking off about so many and you just see on Twitter and you think, why are you doing. And, in real life, you and me, we're just like, we're having a beer, we'll be like you idiot, but if I write to you on Twitter, you are an idiot, this guy, what I mean? So there's the context, a bit of banter. And that's a very crass and simplistic example is very reductive of the problem. But you know, when you can start to understand behavioral and tone of voice kind of inflections, and you can use that to interpret what to do next. You ovulate with machine learning and the AI kind of revolutions are the evolutions. And suddenly preemption becomes easier. Suddenly the ability to predict becomes easier. Suddenly the ability to deliver things when you least expect them, but suddenly when you most need them becomes much, much easier. Now I think what's interesting with that and you, there are a few people at instrumented guys that are doing this to a small degree right now, but it's when I think, the way that the intersection of content audio is content and audio is interaction and, or behavioral stuff. That intersection is when you can potentially interact with your audio. And you can start to say things back to your echo and say, actually, I'm not that first about this advert for stamps.com in the episode of law that I just listened to. All right. Tell me why, X, Y, Z. All right. We'll tell you what we'll tell our own that campaign didn't work and we'll dynamically insert something else for you, just for you, so that when you think further ahead, behavioral implication of the AI, the machine learning implications, that could be. That has got to have a huge impact on CPMs, in our vernacular now, the CPMs and the dynamic ad campaigns that you might run and the ability to actually invest more money across a wider, yet much more specifically targeted range of people based, not on what we think they're listened to, but how they've previously reacted to something on a speaker. So it's related, but I think it's very, again, back to this big versus indie podcast in like the independent podcast that doesn't care about that sort of stuff, because my knitting podcast. I am serving a stamps.com ad, I'm not my CPMs are not high enough, my downloads aren't high enough. I'll get mopped up amongst a bulk buy of 10 book CPMs. And, I'll get bundled in with the generic, let's try podcast advertising for the first time type of advertiser. To me inaudible that's doing that kind of stuff doesn't matter. But to Wondery, and to the Q codes of the world and the wider Spotify style audience, that suddenly becomes interesting, and let's be honest, that's why the closing the ecosystems down. That's why, again, looking right back to the original chat, open podcasting versus closed podcasting the money is in closed podcasting right now, and I'm saying that from a position of loving open podcasting. That's where I want podcast into remain, but I don't think on demand entertainment audio will be bundled in to independent podcasting. I think it just happens to be called that now, because it's just the name that we've all used for on demand audio. So it's, again, it's such a lot of nuance to that, but I think he's got far reaching implications or be it right now, voices, a mechanism for behavioral interactivity is different to the delivery of voices media.
Graham Brown: Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. I would agree with you. I feel that the voice part is, I mean, if you look at it, generally, if you go back, even if you go back historically content creation, was an expensive business and therefore it requires, teams and it required ad buyers to enter. Even if you look at, for example, like getting on TV, which my generation was like a big deal, that you're on TV. It was like, you've made it in life, even if it was once. And now obviously everybody's on TV, on YouTube, and so on. So increasingly that becomes less of a barrier to entry and therefore the kind of content people are producing even if you look in this mid-ground, like the Tik Tok of the world, it's sort of half content production, half communication. So that's just sort of something that gets compressed over time that effectively what's happening is that what was once a big production gigs, and what was communication now just becomes merged in this mid-ground. Be interesting to see how that goes, but that's another rabbit hole we can go down in the conversation. Tell me about the interaction part with podcasts. It fascinates me that how, as an industry and people have complained about this for many years, even clients, like why can't we comment on Spotify? You know, why can't we do this? Why is interactions so, is it the closed garden model or is it something else? Why is it that you, they don't seem to be interested in any manner in creating interaction on the platforms. Where you see this in other formats, obviously YouTube and Facebook very much promoting it. What's the deal there? Why are these guys creating any kind of social interaction in the platform?
Mark Asquith: Well, I think because it promotes knob ads, if you think about it, it completely promotes idiots where, you would, if you think about Spotify allowing any old person to just comment, like look at star wars funds, I'm a huge star wars fan, but man, as a fandom, we really suck. Interaction and social interaction in particular online promotes idiocy. And you've only got to look at people that are Aaron Mahnke. He's such a fair guy and he puts his heart and soul into Lauren. He makes a living from it, which you should do, but he gets beaten by trolls so much. And he's one of the few people that really stand up to them and says, look, here's the deal, this is the set, this is my show. You don't own it just because you listen to it. He's very, very forthcoming with that. And Aaron, I'm sorry if that's paraphrasing, but go and check out his Twitter feed. I think it's @amahnke on Twitter. And either the point is though, anytime you add a layer of two-way social interaction and may I get pitched social podcasting apps at least once a week, the new startup, and there's no point. And the reason for that is that who's going to moderate it. Who was going to stop me getting beat up for saying the R2D2 is a much more fun droid than C3 PO because someone in the world will take umbrage with that is sad fact and I will get beat up for it somewhere somehow. So the sad fact is that humans generally, especially a certain type of person, very bad at being nice. And what gets the flack, if you're building in Spotify or Apple podcasts, Who gets the flag. It's not the trolls. Everyone knows there it is. It's the platform for allowing it. So there's no point, there's clearly no point in building that. Not at all. However, there is a point and this is what we're sort of working on a little bit with this productivity interaction tech, we're talking more about, how do you capture permission-based interaction and engagement at the time that it's required in such a way that it requires just a tap or to. So I'm talking about giving you feedback on something, getting the thing that you've asked me to get or something that's interested me, ensuring that I can get that particular thing, a range of different types of interactions, but on the terms of the listener and the creator. This is why I think podcasting is at a very interesting precipice. We can either copy all of the advertising and interaction and engagement models that every other platform and every other industry has copied, or we can say, look, advertisers want our industry. We as creators and we, as listeners should be able to do that on our terms. We should be asking for permission for everything, we should be granting or declining permission for everything. And when the advertisers get the data that they want, not just impressions of a dynamically inserted ad, but when they get something warmer, it should be just that it should be much warmer. So I think that's the evolution again, that's something that we're tinkering with the productivity and, there are other people tinkering with that as well. And it's just really, it's thinking differently about how we can approach that. But yeah, I think the answer with the social side of it is that humans are generally not very nice, and those that I'm talking about in particular, those that believe that they own something because they understand how to access it and consume it. It is very unfair for trolls to exist and that you see every level of creation, from the indie creator, right up to star wars. And the sad fact is it's the platforms that get brought to trial for that because they've allowed it and suddenly, suddenly not an audio business, suddenly you're a firefighting trolls business. It's tough, man. It's tough. And I think the last, most obvious piece of this puzzle as well is that podcasting is largely passive. It is largely passive. Yeah. I don't want to be fired up my phone. Sure. I can pick up my phone to tap a button because you've said something interesting. But I don't want to be head down commenting with you about, this particular thing on star wars, because, you've heard it on a star wars podcast. Like I'll do that later on Reddit or I'll do it somewhere else. The podcasting medium is the thing when I'm driving, I'll run in our walk and I'll clean in our whatever. So, yeah, again, I think it's a bit of a multi-layered answer in, a multi-layered viewpoint.
Graham Brown: The last one. Yeah. I mean, I think that's going to be, it doesn't add any value from your perspective. It sounds like it doesn't add any value by making active actually takes away. Whereas the default in social media is to add interactivity to everything. So the fact that you add comment maybe even makes it worse for the user. I just want to kind of zone out. Enjoy this conversation. And in many ways, like a lot of what people are finding in podcasts now is it's not social media. I'm not looking at a screen. I'm not having to like something or comment on something, which is just becoming a, there's general fatigue isn't there that people are feeling at the moment. And it's really been exaggerated by the last 18 months of what's happened. People are probably a bit more frail now for really questioning what the hell am I doing this thing? So in terms of
Mark Asquith: People do get more picky to that point, to jump into people are more picky. And, that's my view on the social audio space as well is that it's very easy for social audio to add pressure to a person, to be constantly on social audio. I dipped into Clubhouse in the early days and I'm not that fussed about it. I love Twitter. Twitter is my medium, I really love Twitter. That's my place. So space is to me is more interesting because it's already built into the platform have used.
Graham Brown: Have you started using it? I mean, I've seen, I don't know if it's actually out. I mean, I've seen the announcing it, but I've never seen anybody using it yet. So it's up and running.
Mark Asquith: I've done a few of them. Yeah. We did a session with inaudible and we did
Graham Brown: Better than clubhouse.
Mark Asquith: Yeah, it's just useful cause it's already there for you. You know what we got,
Graham Brown: Inaudible it's got one as well coming out as well. What do you think of that?
Mark Asquith: I think it's all the same. I mean, it's all good. I mean, what was interesting for me on Twitter was, and I'll get to the Reddit question in a second, but what was interesting on the Twitter one was that it's literally built into the social network that I love the most. So I may as well continue with that and dive into that. And I think, again, we got some people that came on and, it was nice because I could talk to, in fact, Aaron came on, so I could talk to Aaron Mahnke about the future of audio and apple podcast subscriptions, in a place that his audience could listen to it as well. So it was kind of nice for that, because that audience is pre-med, but I think, the Reddit stuff, the clubhouse stuff I think certainly with clubhouse, I see this as being a, bring it to market first great idea, but I think it will die a little bit of a death as the platforms build it. And for the very reason that I've just stared about Twitter and the two ways to kind of articulate that perspective number one, oh crap I've got to go build more clubhouse following and I can't be bothered, everyone's PC all the time. Like, oh, come and join us. We're one of the biggest clubhouse clubs, I m like well done. And I know for a fact, you just gonna use it to try and sell stuff. So, see you later, I'm not interested. The other side of the coin is that Reddit, Facebook, Spotify, they're all coming out with these social audio things out of old set their intent when it comes to them. And I don't necessarily think it's a race for dominance. I think it's more of a case of look, you like it more on Reddit and I like it more on, on Facebook or Twitter. So Graham you go and playing your Reddit sandbox and I'll go and play on my Twitter one. And whoever else go and play in the Facebook one. I don't necessarily see being a race to the bottom or a competitive thing
Graham Brown: more than I think for these guys. Is they got to have it. Doesn't? Yeah, it doesn't wait in business, but he loses it if you don't have it, maybe.
Mark Asquith: Yeah. And maybe not even loses business. I think it's more just fragments attention. I'll never stop being on Twitter and I'll never stop, posting as much as I do. But what I might do is I might add another social network into the mix. If they do one facet of it better.