Graham Brown: One of the things I want to start with is what's really interesting is what does a train. Journalists know about storytelling that we don't yet know in podcasting, because podcasting is very early stages and that people are still doing, like man speaks to man type podcast. Journalists have a craft, many, many years of storytelling learning to find human angles and so on. What did you learn as a journalist that we could learn from as podcasters?
Koos Tervooren: Yeah, well, they're actually, two different types of journalism when it comes to telling a story. And the first is to the one that you see most. It's actually not really storytelling it's just saying, this is the news, this is some more information. And when you get down on the article, it gets less interesting. So the interesting stuff is, in the first Alinea, and then after that it gets less interesting. That's one way of telling a story, but there's also storytelling in which you take more time or more words to tell a story, and he actually want the audience, to engage until the end and what I've learned. I've studied history and, and journalism, journalism as a masters. What I've learned during my masters is that the basis of storytelling is zooming in and zooming out. So when you're telling a story, there's this story, so a guy goes to a supermarket and buys groceries, but then there's like a, there's always a bigger story. This is a guy he lives in a certain place. The supermarket is doing well because we're living in a crisis and everybody's at home, so they can only go through the supermarkets. And there's always a bigger story to tell than just a story. So if you're a good storyteller that's what I learned during my master's. You have to zoom in and zoom out all the time. So I'm telling about this guy going through the supermarket, and it's interesting that we talk about supermarkets because during these days supermarkets are really doing well. People are staying at home because of COVID. It's the only shop that could go to a supermarket. Well, they make a lot of money. Well, back to the guy, it'd be the guy's going through the supermarkets. He's walking down the streets in, in London, London, interesting city. Eh, you go back and forth all day, zooming in, zooming out. That's one that technique you learn as a journalist. It's Cool.
Graham Brown: Is there any conflict of interest between telling a story and telling facts? Because when you think about storytelling, even as a kid, Mum's tell kids, don't tell stories as if that stories means telling a lie, right? And then when we grow up, we think storytelling is somehow not factual and the journalism is about truth. Isn't it really? So is there not some dynamic tension there that you'd have to tell a story. You have to tell the truth, they the same or are they different?
Koos Tervooren: I think there's a conflict because I think every journalistic piece that, uses storytelling has some imagination in it. And some interpretation of facts, like when you're telling a pure journalistic story about as stocks are going down by 5%, if you'd just tell that these are facts, but if you're telling a bigger story about how the world is influencing the stock market there's always an interpretation of these facts. So there's always some one interpreting these facts and imagining what could be the effect of what's going on in the world, on the stock market, and especially if you want to make a story, very interesting. Do you want to make a storyline with a beginning and an end, then it takes more imagination and interpretation to make a story interesting. So I think there's always a conflict, but I don't think at the same time. I think it's very important that we, and I speak now for we as journalists, but I'm not really a journalist anymore. I've got my own Podcast company now, but I'm still using journalistic techniques. I think it's very important to keep telling news and journalistic things in a way of storytelling. I think that's very important because otherwise an audience is not going to listen to a story, not going to read a story, not going to watch a documentary. You have to make it a bit juicy. Otherwise the audience not going to consume it. I think it's very important if you want it, you see with this documentary, that's aired a couple of weeks ago or a couple of months it's called Seaspiricy. It's like Cowspiracy. It's about the environment. It's about climate and how we are not doing well with fishing. I think there are a lot of facts in it. But it's also told in a certain way, from a certain perspective that makes it juicy. So the audience is going to watch.
Graham Brown: In a world of podcasting, who's getting that right. Who inspires you in terms of stories or the way of engaging audiences?
Koos Tervooren: I'm actually most inspired by the guys of Gimlet. Actually one of the first, podcasts I listened, it was Startup, of course, the famous podcast by Gimlet and they actually take you on their journey, starting up a Podcast company. And I started listing that at the time that I was starting at a Podcast company. So that was for me, that was really engaging. I heard them at pitching to investors. I heard them, brainstorming about name. So I catch, you could just follow their podcasts and try to do the same thing, and it was like a guide. So that was really inspiring, but that's, I don't know if that's really like engaging in a way that, that you can interact with the podcasters. Nowadays, you see a lot more, podcasters are starting to create communities and we're also starting to create a community. So we have one podcaster she's called Olean and her podcast is named inaudible. How much am I worth? She's been a how do you say it, Stuart on an airplane for 50 years, and at some point he thought, okay, I'm not going to do it for the rest of my life. I want to be a podcaster and she did an internship at her company and in her podcasts, how much am I worth is she's like finding out how much she's worth and how much she can put on her invoice and how much she can ask for podcast jobs. And she speaks with people that have already done that, or are coaches or influencers or whatever. And you can actually sign up for four euros a month to get extra contents and to be in a telegram group. So they are all like a lot of women are in this group between the age of 30 and 45, exchanging experiences, really forming a community. So I think if you're talking about engagement in, in both podcasting, I think that's one thing that is happening right now.
Graham Brown: Hmm. It's almost like the old days of radio, but radio did this very well. Didn't it? You have time at radio, as a journalist as well that, radio survived by its ability to create a community. And in podcasting, a lot of people are just saying, oh, this is what I want to talk about. And hopefully, I'll create a community by getting the guests to share with their people. Doesn't create communities. It doesn't stick, doesn't convert. Yet this example that you talk about, the lady that's building a community, this is like an emerging model. Isn't it? Where effectively, you've got the property, which is the podcast, and you have the air time, which could be, for example, a telegram group. It could be clubhouse. It could be LinkedIn live. It could be a Reddit group, whatever Facebook creates, LinkedIn, Reddit, et cetera, all those kinds of audio spaces emerging that I think this is the model now, isn't it? Creating community around your podcast? You've mentioned a really interesting example. What else do you see in this space that you think, well, these guys are doing something interesting or you feel, maybe this is more what we'll see more of in the next few years in community building.
Koos Tervooren: I think first we will see a lot more ads in podcasts. I think research shows that podcast listeners are actually okay with ads in podcast. They are not offended by it, or don't find it strange or something. So I think we will see that more and more. Also, if you look at the numbers, it's getting more and more so we will see that. What I find most interesting, when it comes to like business models and podcasting is sponsorships and not sponsorships in the old way that you say, okay, this production is sponsored or power by this or that firm. But actually, sponsoring a podcast by joining the podcast. So this is also what I did for a series I made about doing business in the US it's called the Over Stake which is translated this, the crossing. I went to New York for three months and I found out how it is to do business in the US. And that production is actually sponsored by three different, big corporations, gobble bunk, which is a big bank in the Netherlands. Baker McKenzie, a big law firm, and RSM big accounts. And they sponsor the podcast and they are not named into podcasts, but I interviewed them once. I interviewed with them about, of course, opening a bank account in the US, about intellectual property. And that's what I talked about with the law firm. I talked about insurances and taxes with the accountants and they actually pay me to do my journalistic work. I didn't have any contract with them about what I can and cannot talk about. I just said, if you want any of my podcasts, if you want to buy the chair to be in my podcast, that's possible. And I think when it comes to really commercial podcasts, we will see that more often. And I think there are going to be more and more platforms facilitating ads for podcasters. So you'll see more ads, you see more sponsored deals in which companies buy yourself into podcasts. And you'll probably see more platforms facilitating all that. And I've recently found out that I don't want to be a platform like that, but I just want to make a podcast and I hope there will be a lot of these platforms that I can use.
Graham Brown: With that sponsorship model. How does that originate? Do you pitch the idea to those three brands or does somebody come to you? Where does it start? How does that work?
Koos Tervooren: It's basically cold calling. It's like seals the old-fashioned way. So I used to be a journalist and I worked at a radio station that is called business news radio. It's a national broadcaster for business. And, And foreign political news. So I already had that like a network of people in communications or marketing because these people were calling me all the time. Hey, I got a story. Maybe want to talk about it on the radio. So I got this user list of people that have already known for years because they were pitching stories to me all time. And at some point, I started my own company, Microphone Media, and I was starting to production off a series to crossing about doing business in the US, and I just called all these people back. I said, Hey, you pitched the story to me two years ago. Now you can really tell your story with maybe, now you have to pay for it. So, I just called them and this was, it was two years ago. So the market wasn't as to fill up that as it is now, but, they were already back then were willing to pay for being in a podcast and to be interviewed in a production. And of course, I also had a distribution partner, like a news website that was joining and, so yeah, they were really into it and, that's how it worked.
Graham Brown: Yeah. Good for you.
Koos Tervooren: Yeah. That was great.
Graham Brown: Going out and hustling as well. What was the pitch like? I mean, you said it was two years ago. The market wasn't so developed as it is now. Did you, how did you make that work for those brands? Was it the numbers, was that the concept, the idea. Cause I imagine you could pitch that to a lot of brands and they say, oh, well, compared to an advert in the newspaper or compared to Facebook ads, for example, I'm going to get a different rate and a different type of engagement and reach yet. What was the real core of it there that worked for you?
Koos Tervooren: Well, when it comes to pitching and sales, I always try to sell to people a high up to three. But it's yeah, sometimes you don't get there. But if you get there, it's way easier to talk and you don't actually have to talk about numbers. They just find it fun or to have some budget for it. And it's way easier talking, but if you are lower on the chain and, you have a champion that is also, that also has to sell w within her or his own company. Then the numbers are important. And that makes it also actually hard to sell podcast . Because if you compare a podcast to a banner or a video on Instagram, the numbers are way less. So they're lower numbers. Less people listen to podcasts until the ends, then people watching like 30 seconds to a video that they see when they're scrolling their Instagram feeds. So when it comes to those numbers, it's actually hard to sell and you're actually making it yourself harder if you're saying, oh, I'm gonna, I'm going reach it 10,000 people with this, podcast because I used to do that before. They're saying 10,000 with this banner campaign, we pay half the price and we reached like 200,000 people, so that makes it hard to sell. So what I started doing was actually selling average consumption. So you really have to make them believe that's the most important thing about a podcast that people actually listening to and they're listening to the end of the podcast. So when I come with data, I always show, okay, this is a series we've made for this huge e-commerce platform in the Netherlands, and every single episode has an average consumption of 80% or higher. So when people are not there, they're listening it maybe thousands of people are listening to the podcast. Maybe not a hundred thousand, but when people will listen, they listen till the end of it. So this is one of the few media forums in which you actually can tell a story and people are listening to the end. So that makes it worthwhile or medium to use.
Graham Brown: Yeah, there's a lot of good data, isn't there about engagement numbers and time and how,
Koos Tervooren: And you can also do the math. If 10,000 people are listening to a podcast for 20 minutes. They have 200,000 of minutes, people engaging with you. So that's also a good method thing, easy to use.
Graham Brown: Well, why do you think it's important that we sell podcasts on the basis of length of engagement? Because then people might just say, well, I can get 10 times more listeners or 10 times more clicks on another, Facebook platform, for example, why is the actual length of engagement a key selling point?
Koos Tervooren: Yeah. Because you're not going to sell it with other numbers. You're not going to sell as maybe in a couple of years. But if we look at the Netherlands and I mainly work for big corporations in the Netherlands, if your podcast is listened to 100,000 or 200,000 times per episode, you're in the top three podcasts. So there are not that many people listening to podcasts in the Netherlands. We've got, I think we've got 17 million inhabitants right now. And 5 million are listening to a podcast every single month. So it is hard to sell with these numbers. So the DFS consumption is pretty much the only number you have, but I would advise anyone trying to sell their podcasts, not starting with selling with numbers because then it comes down to two clicks, pretty fast and then that's often answer conversation.
Graham Brown: Yeah, absolutely. Right. If you're going at the top level it's more about the idea.
Koos Tervooren: Yeah. They want to talk about strategy and they want to talk about their brand as a lot of brands. Okay. We have to tell stories so that people like our brands, that's a more abstract way of talking, but it's easier to sell your podcast in these situations.
Graham Brown: Yeah. If you put it in the context of Communications, for example, what is the value of the CEO speaking on the radio or speaking to a journalist of the wall street time, sorry, the wall street journal, or, being at that event, speaking alongside other CEOs, these are all extremely valuable. But in these instances, people don't say one of the numbers like the CEO knows exactly that this is where they need to be and where they need to tell this story. And it's long form as well. If they get 20 minute speaking engagement at this conference to them, that's valuable and it's quite emotional. I think it's quite personal as well. It's very much built around the emotional needs of leadership within these organizations. Once you get down to the lower levels they can't take risks like that. They have to have the numbers because their boss will beat them over the head.
Koos Tervooren: Yeah. And you can blame them. They want to make careers themselves within the company. So they have certain targets and, yeah, they have to present numbers. That's how it works. But if you're talking with someone who was a manager or a managing director, even from the boards, they're talking about strategy and not about the little numbers and not about budgets that much that day. If you're talking with someone lower on a chain, you're talking about thousands of euros. And if you're higher up that to, because talking about tens of thousands of euros, that's a different conversation you were having.
Graham Brown: So we need to be, or what is it that you think about podcasting and the world of podcasts that the world disagrees with you. As a potential contrarian, I'm sure you are because you are Dutch, you like to speak your minds very frankly. Is there something that you think about podcasts that the world tends to not agree with you on? So I'll give you an example for me. One thing that I think that I see differently from the world is everybody's talking about advertising in podcasts as a billion-dollar market, one and a half billion, maybe growing to 2 billion by next year. But I look at podcasts and think, hang on a second, companies are spending 150 billion a year on press releases and PR and communications and talking to journalists, these comms guys speaking to journalists, right? They're spending 150 billion a year on that. I'm thinking that's the market though. I wouldn't, that's a hundred times bigger, and so I think a lot of people disagree with me because they only see advertising, but I see this huge piece, which is about communications and thought leadership. And it's not as interesting as brand originals or like,
Koos Tervooren: Well, I actually agree. I agree with you. So it's you and me against the world.
Graham Brown: Ah, I can't answer question now is like, somebody else agrees with me.
Koos Tervooren: I've got one thing I think, and that's when it comes to a video. I think what you will see is that more and more podcasters will start using video because of promotion. And I understand that because one of the best examples of that working is the Joe Rogan experience. It's podcast but everybody watches like the snippets on YouTube. I think that works for the biggest podcasters out there in the world because of their famous people and their personalities. But I see all these, podcasts around me starting video as well, but I don't think that adds any real value to the concept of podcasting. I understand that it's a four for promotion and I understand why they do it, but I think it takes so much more effort, and the results you get out of also doing video are, I think they're way less than people would expect. But I think I'm the thing I want I'm one of the few people in the world right now thinking that, because I see video more and more, we're also using it more and more, but I'm still not a big fan, but maybe that's also because I don't really understand video. I'm not really like an image guy.
Graham Brown: I think you're right. It's more about they using it as a promotion tool. And like you say about the production of the video. Firstly, if you produce a video it's expensive to get the same kind of results. And secondly, you can't do better than a 13-year-old kid on YouTube for views. So forget it. It's like you won't getting a million views when this kid's just knocking out a Minecraft gameplay. So that's the challenge, right? As a brand, you'll be up against those guys. I think it's because it's the promotion part, isn't it. Everybody's struggling with audience growth and they're using video as the obvious target. There are other options. You mentioned the, like the Patreon type example of the sponsored content, the telegram groups. These are all be another version of the video. It's another, in the old days we had radio and you had music and you had a radio. Today we have podcasts, and we have what's that space and that space is video, clubhouse, telegram, all the different inaudible distribution channels, right? So I think that's kind of where it's going. Video is just one of many options in there.
Koos Tervooren: I agree with you. And so I think it can work for promotion using small snippets to put on your LinkedIn page, because when you're just sharing a link with a little texts, few people are going to, to stick to it and press the link, click on the link. And when you're uploading a video 30 seconds and something's happening, people are going to stick to it and just going to watch it and if they find it interesting, and they're going to click on your podcast. So I can imagine that it's, that it will work for the promotion, but there are also a lot of podcasters, like putting the whole thing online and expecting people to go and watch the whole thing and the results are inaudible. Because people like to listen to a podcast while doing something else. I think that they're not that much, many people who are going to sit at their couch late at night, watching a two-hour podcast on video. You can also watch vloggers on YouTube, like Casey Neistat or whatever, who are real professionals and they're actually really good content on Netflix, whatever.
Graham Brown: Exactly. Good man. It's a good conversation. I enjoyed this chat.
Koos Tervooren: Yeah, me too, man.