Graham Brown: This is James Bishop, Age of Audio. All right, James, let's get straight into it. I know you're a man with an opinion.
James Bishop: Let's do it. Love this kind of thing.
Graham Brown: Gloves off. I know. You're not going to do the, what do you know now that you didn't know questions? So let me come from a different angle. What is it that you believe about podcasting that others don't get yet, or maybe disagree with you on?
James Bishop: I think that we're going to start to see the rise of the audio first influencer, who builds a cross channel, cross-platform, cross-format brand. And I think that's something that people aren't expecting to happen in the way that I think that it will. So what I mean by that is that we have YouTubers and we have Instagram influencers and these guys are well-recognized, people know them. They have deemed fame and success and all the things that come with that, and they've started their brands on these wellness social platforms that I think that we will see this happen in the next year, 18 months, two years with more and more podcasters. We have a funeral. Reggie, someone like Joe Rogan for example, is primarily known for his podcast, which isn't really accurate because he was a TV personality and did MMA, that kind of thing is presenting before his podcast. But I guess the majority of people know him for his pod, and then he's grown a brand from there. I think we will see more and more of that. And I think that's something that is not, I think it's underestimated.
Graham Brown: So what would they be like an audio first influencer? Would they be qualitatively different to an Instagram influencer?
James Bishop: I think I'm making the distinction that they will, their primary channel will be a podcast or some kind of audio content. I might be wrong here. It's unlikely, but I might be. So you know where you might have an Instagram influencer whose rise and success and notoriety came from Instagram first. I think we'll start to see the same, but from podcast first more and more. So I think it already exists. I think it'll become more recognized. As a primary channel and all of these people by the nature of, this is just a game of attention, the whole thing, this whole podcasting marketing storytelling thing. It's a case of attention arbitrage. If you go back a really long way, I used to write stories on the wolves. Then we had paper and pens and we wrote that way and we had the books. Then we had the wireless, the radio, the television, then the age of the Internet. And the attention has just moved from one to the other. They don't necessarily replace each other. When your mum got a microwave, she didn't stop using the oven. She added it. And now, along came the internet. We had Facebook, Instagram took some of the attention from Facebook. Tik Toks come along, taken some of that attention and it's moved and young people tend to move faster than the older generations. It's moved from Instagram, maybe to Tik Tok and my grandfather was just shy of 102 when he passed away. And he said in his last couple of days, just to mention to me, James, the thing is none of this is new, things are just going round in circles just sometimes it takes time. So podcasting, super exciting, but it's just a new version of the radio. I've been listening to stuff since I was a young boy in 19 25, 19 26. I remember listening to the wireless at home with my parents, and now you're making podcasts and we're listening in just the same way we did when it was trendy in 1925. So we haven't really invented a new thing. It's just coming back into fashion again. And attention is therefore moving there. So I think that's how you'll see the rise of more influential figures in space.
Graham Brown: Yeah. It's an old behavior for sure, isn't it? A new technology. And even if you look at those old vintage photographs of families gathered around the wireless, like your granddad would have been, they were physically large wooden cabinets, weren't they?
James Bishop: They were.
Graham Brown: And that would be sitting around these pieces of furniture, listening to, I Love Lucy or whatever it was back in the forties and fifties, then people used to actually gather. And in a way, there's a sense that's coming back. Isn't it? That with podcasts that they're creating this connection. That doesn't exist in our lives today. Look at where we are in the last couple of years, what's happened to us.
James Bishop: I think so. And I think that you, what you make, there is an interesting side point that I wonder whether we'll become a thing again. So with the rise of attention and with more traffic moving to a space, people take it more seriously and more becomes invested in it for the obvious game. And I think that one of the things that lack when there isn't as much attention and therefore time and money and love spent is that the quality of storytelling isn't as great. One of the challenges in a podcast from a hobbyist or this whole low barrier to entry, I can record it for nothing. I can upload it for nothing. That thing also tends to manifest bad storytelling. And that is as simple as the beginning of Midland and the end. As that arises, it becomes more enjoyable. One of the things that I think isn't talked about, so you talk about my granddad and maybe what's that nearly a hundred years ago, I suppose, they would sit around as a family. Whereas podcasting has become a very solo activity. You put your headphones on. One of the reasons it works. One of the reasons it's successful is that you feel like you've got a friend in your ears because of that sort of intimate relationship, that friendship that you gained with the host, another topic, I could talk about the ages, the importance of defining the host in a show. But I think that what we might see is the idea of people listening to podcasts together, again, in a similar way that maybe the radio is listened to together. I don't know, but I think it might happen, but I think it will be more in a different format. So I think potentially, especially with what's happened during the pandemic and the live streaming concept that you'll go to start to see things like live-streamed podcast events. So in the UK, we have a show live at the Apollo. I don't know where in the world this is going, but, or how well no live at the Apollo is, but I can imagine a live at the Apolloesque situation for podcasting. So you buy a ticket. It's probably streamed online. It probably is in a zoom call because you've got fatigued, but you sit there with your pizza in the evening. And what you watch is three or four podcasts, one after the other, either do a live interview or a panel discussion or something. And they're all well known for being podcasts. And it's audio first, but you'll probably see the visual and they'll all be connected through a theme. So they might all be in the, I don't know, social purpose space. So there are people you're interested in and then they will all bring their communities together. I will sit there with my partner and my children and we'll watch it and we'll enjoy it. And we'll be a fan of one or two of the podcasters, but we'll probably be discovering new ones as well. And there will be that kind of experience. I can see that sort of thing manifesting itself from podcasting in the next couple of years. Does that sound crazy to you?
Graham Brown: No. Not really. If you consider that if you look at it in the context of radio that's been happening for some time.
James Bishop: Sure.
Graham Brown: And now, like you say, like your granddad, why is it? He said it all just comes around. He said what we're really seeking out is that sort of the event like shared experiences, isn't it? Schultz manifesting in different ways.
James Bishop: And I think another thing which I don't hear talked about very often, but pre-pandemic, there was this big you've got to always been consuming content. And the way I would explain the need for a podcast was like, it's something that you can do whilst you're doing other things because you've got this active and passive listening of podcasting. And I think that pre-pandemic, it was probably quite a passive activity. I would do it because I'd got to a point in my life as a human where I was running around, I was always doing something was going here, going there. I would often be watching the telly in the evening. I would be streaming Netflix with my laptop open and my phone. So I'd have three screens going. So I needed this constant stimulation from content and whatever. So when I got on the bus or on the underground, which I thankfully haven't been on for a long time, I couldn't possibly just stand there in silence and think about the day I needed something and that's what I used a podcast for. But since I haven't been on the underground for 18 months, whatever, I think that need has changed. And like podcasts consumption has definitely gone from being passive because of a neurological change or stimulation that I needed to be very active. Now I put a podcast on and I go for a walk or I would sit and watch it on YouTube. And I don't do anything else while I'm doing it. And I think, I don't know what you think, is that something that you agree with or maybe as we go back to the old habits creep back in. Maybe it'll go back to this. I've just got to be taking something in, but I think that is breaking, not good for us either.
Graham Brown: Take something like, as an example, like when mobile games came out first, or mobile content first come out because that's the world I came from mobile. And so we're going back like early two thousand when a snake was like a state of the art and SMS games. That was really cutting-edge stuff. And there's the rationale for those content producers was it was filling dead time so, bus stops all the kind of situations you told about, and that was how people got used to it. And however, that has changed and it's moved and evolved and it like mobile apps completely have evolved from being just time for this to something a lot more active in our lives. This content finds its behavioral niche in there at the beginning cause it's like not competing against anything apart from boredom. And yet once it's got its foothold there, it grows and I think that's happening. Like you say, talking about this active listening now, that seems to be competing with Netflix and your phone now. So it has to stand on its own feet now and be worthy and a great story and great content in its own. Rather than just being better than just staring at the underground map.
James Bishop: I think so. I mean, yeah, I think that's exactly true. And one of the things that we're going to see moving forward that I think will disrupt the industry, the podcasting. Now I hate the word disrupt, and I don't mean that. The necessity for good content, good quality content in terms of storytelling is going to continue to rise for the reasons that you just said.
Graham Brown: Like in your opinion, James, who tells great stories and who's a master of this craft in podcasting, at least who engages you?
James Bishop: Interesting question that, I don't know if we talked about this before.
Graham Brown: You've only mentioned Joe Rogan as a start point, right?
James Bishop: So for me, there are lots of genres in podcasting, so I think it's dangerous to blanket approach this. But song and art. So the question is slightly different, I'll give you a straight, simple answer for me the gold standard is Alex, that makes Call her daddy. I would say that is an exemplary version of great audio storytelling. She has incredibly well-integrated advertising. Right off the bat hooks you in the first 30 seconds of every show she's delivering on the title of the show, which I think is so important. She also creates cliffhangers. She shares enough of her own story so that you emotionally bought into her. She's vulnerable enough so that she becomes relatable and she leaves you need to come back next week to find out what might happen. And then she integrates that with interviews or conversations or topics as per any other podcast. So for me right now that as a just piece of work is fantastic. And then on top of that, she's built an incredible brand from her podcast. So you can get the merchandise, you can interact with her on social media. She makes herself available. She makes it easy for you to be a fan. And I think that's another thing that you will absolutely see in the next 24, 36 months is, those podcasters who make it easy for you to be a fan of their show, we'll see continued success and those who don't, won't. Because we're not going to start listening to 15 podcasts. I listened to six or seven podcasts max at any one time and probably not more than 10 or 12 total. As more podcasts are released, which is just going to exponentially get quicker that doesn't mean I'm going to start listening to more. So you've got to win and hold and retain my attention. And the best way of doing that is to build relationships and be where my attention is all the time, not just in the podcast.
Graham Brown: Very interesting. Is that the base of that podcast a traditional interview
James Bishop: I guess some of its monologue stuff, some of its interview stuff. Have you listened to it?
Graham Brown: Not recently.
James Bishop: Have a lesson? Don't listen with kids, parents just as a health warning probably. Don't put it on in the car and go, oh, I wonder what this thing James said. Yeah.
Graham Brown: Yeah, not safe for work. Curious cause let us, if you take that as the base of pretty much most podcasts out there, apart from the very rich audio storytelling narratives that maybe give people an idea of what's possible, how do you take what is very traditionally. Man speaks to man about mans, let's face it boring backstory. That's what it is that to what you talked about, Alex's podcast, like how do you go from faith? You could approach it the same, couldn't you? What do you need to do differently? And how does that sort of hook you in as a fan?
James Bishop: Okay, so there's a number of things that you, this is a great question is how do you take the standard what we call two people, one microphone internally. We hold it to people on the microphone as one type of podcasting and they're works of art as another. And they're very different things in friction and different ways. The question is how do you take a two-person one microphone podcast and make it better? Make it more interesting? One of the things that we do at the company that I run is, what we call a podcast review. It's essentially like a health check of your show that you started making to see where you're at and the same things tend to come up. One of them is, and we'll just talk about one of my favorites, one of the things I think moves the dial the most. That is to define the character that the host plays in the show and make sure that clearly identifiable because there are three stakeholders in your podcast. There's you, there's the host, there's the listener, and there are any brands or sponsors or partners. Those are the three key stakeholders, those are the people that you see all the time. A stakeholder is not a guest is not a stakeholder. They come and they go, but most people typically when they start putting all of the work onto the guest. So the guest turns up they're unpredictable, you don't know what they're going to be, you don't know if they're working for themselves or they're working for you in the interview, you don't know if they've got your back. Often it goes haywire or they're different personalities and you can't get it back, and it changes the whole nature of an episode, which you feel obliged to put out. If you don't clearly understand who you are and the stance that you're taking. Then it's really hard to understand how you fit there. So one of the things we often ask people is why you, why are you hosting this show? And often just by the nature of podcasts and entrepreneurship and men's mental health and all these popular topics. It can be like why can't I just host your podcast? Why do we need you? What's the lens with which you're seeing the world that you're sharing because otherwise, if you think I've only listened to six or seven shows, I'm going to listen to one that's I'm already listening to you that's just slightly different. If you're just doing the circuit of guests and you're getting on this X famous rugby player, and this guy and whatever, that's another one. So who are you, why are you in the show? What are you bringing to it? How are you tying it back to you? Because you're the person who's going to be there next week. And I think that's a real way to move. Just don't think about it as two people one microphone, we don't call them interviews with ever, ever, ever referred to anything as interviews, their conversations at worst.
Graham Brown: Then lies between VAT, getting that conversation where you have to define host and you mentioned things like vulnerability as well, and man speaks demand. Like what is missing? Especially if we take it into the B2B space or corporates or people who aren't of the world of radio or natural storytellers. What's that chasm that lies between. Yes, I get what you're saying, James, and the current default position and how do you get them across that?
James Bishop: Okay. I'm going to walk you through the things that we tend to define so that we can then put those into show format. So the first, and this is often people refer to podcasting as especially hosts refer to podcasting is a bit like therapy. You get to talk to people, you get to learn, you get to discover. You get to, it's like that whole kind of, the whole rubber duck theory, is that what it's called? Where you talk to like sometimes therapy can be called a bit like rubber ducking. Isn't it? Cause you're just, the concept of therapy is really that you keep talking and you find stuff out. This has often parallels to that so you got to understand because you're sharing with the world where you're starting. The first thing to do is look at yourself personally, a bit of reflection and understand what are your values? What do you stand for? What's important to you? What are you going to stand by and not stand by? Cause those things normally will then inform the podcast, then makes it very clear for your editor or for you or whoever is controlling something in the post because hopefully there'll be some kind of post-production. A good quality podcast is a highlight reel of a conversation, not a conversation. In this recording here I've given you space, hopefully, to talk to share some of your own thoughts you were telling me earlier on. That will give a nice balance when you cut out some of my waffles to the two sides, and then we've got a conversation, not just you interviewing me, asking me questions. If it's 3%,97%, 3%, I say the first thing is values. What are your values? What do you stand for? The second thing that I think that we get people to think about is their icons and tokens. So recurring motifs, objects, brands, things that you are passionate about from that perspective because might repeat through the show. So for example, you might be really passionate about what it's like to be a young person in 2021. That is a clear icon of you as a person that can then continue to repeat, people can become familiar with that. The next one, which is similar is rituals and familiarities. So recurring phrases, segments that might appear in your show, topics that you always cover that kind of thing. What's important in your own life from that perspective, what do you do? What comes naturally to you? Because then you can start to engineer that easily in your really clearly identified origin story, I think is very important. What is your origin story in six bullet points? The more that you speak on other podcasts, which is probably the best way to promote any podcast, another conversation, the more you realize that you need to explain your origin story in a few bullet points, that's totally relevant. You haven't got 15 minutes cause no one cares where you went to school. No punchline, no one's interested. It's just going to get cut. So how do you describe your entire story in six bullet points? And if you, a prime example of this is someone like Gary Vaynerchuk people give him a hard time because I'll say, oh, mock him, but he's turned his origin story into six bullet points. I'm an immigrant. We moved to America. We did this. We grew up with not very much. I started my first business. I turned my dad's wine store from 5 to $30 million. Like you can tell his life story in six bullet points and everybody knows it. But that's great. It's well-communicated, it makes sense, it stands out. I can tell you what it is now, rather than this raw long rambling version. What language do you like to use? What kind of keywords or phrases do you use on a regular basis? Do you repeat come out naturally because they might become a catchphrase of your podcast? They might become things that people like that familiarity, it works. That's why catchphrases exist. So the more you can become conscious of that, the more you can use that when you're developing your show. So it's these little things that can make you influential in being the host of your show, rather than necessarily being a battle of you taking up more talking time. Another interesting things to think about are our mentors. Who do you look up to? Who you will always repeat? Like for example, Gary Vaynerchuk being one of mine, I built most of my business based on just consuming ridiculous amounts of his content and then applying what he actually says rather than just hearing it. I'm quite open about that, I mentioned it on an ongoing basis. It's easier for people to start to feel an affinity to you if they can relate you to other stuff, what are your superpowers? Why are you specifically relevant for this podcast? What are your areas of expertise? What lens do you see the world through? Often we sometimes call this the 5% rule. So most people, a good example of this is I've got a friend, who's got a YouTube channel. She was really into knitting and she really liked dogs. Now, there are people who know more about knitting. My mum knows probably more about knitting than she does because she's twice our age and there's definitely people who know about dogs. So she would have started a YouTube channel. She was like I like these things, but they're going to be hard to inaudible. So she put them together and she started knitting dog jumpers. Now she has an entire business that is all about knitting dog jumpers. No one knows more about that than her. She took these two things in her 5%. 95% of our lives are the same. It's that 5% that's different. So simple in a business format like what's my lens with which I look at podcasting that makes me stand out from someone else, but you need to do this yourself in your area of expertise. And then the last one is pagans, things that you don't like. What are you Anti? So I am very openly anti the old guard of podcasting and I'm anti inaudible changes. And I like we'll use those, I'm difficult about it. I use it as a bit of a weapon to create a bit of buzz. I will say controversial things about ad exchanges. I'm inflammatory on purpose as part of my character that's what I want to get known for. That's how, that's just a trick for me to stand up. The more I'm hard on ad exchanges the sooner everyone in podcasting is gonna know who I am and that's to my advantage. I don't actually mean it the way I say it. I do, but I stand behind my reasoning. So, but your pagans can be much simpler than, It could just be capitalism or it could be whatever it might be. But if you can start to understand all these kinds of things about your character and you look at yourself first, then you'll see or understand how they easily reflect into your podcast. And then you start to be more considered in your approach and the things that you say, and in turn that will build your bigger character in the show, which is the thing that recurs because you're one of the key stakeholders and that will help your show grow. That was a long-winded answer but
Graham Brown: It's a great answer. Oh, no, there's a lot in there. I've to distill that down. What was your 5% James?
James Bishop: Oh, that's a great question. I don't think it's something that you can ever nail entirely, but my 5% from a work perspective is definitely podcasting meets human behavior. So it's like I've got a good, solid understanding of podcasting and storytelling. And I've got a good understanding of human behavior and social, and I'm definitely agnostic as to content formats where they belong. I don't make a judgment about Tik TOK. I just get on and consume it and learn and understand. Yeah, something like that.
Graham Brown: Interesting. Because most people are engineers essentially in the podcasting space, Audio engineers, ex-radio. They bring that baggage, or ex-agency even.
James Bishop: Exactly ex agency. As a business, I think the reason that we're doing the things that we're doing is we're building a tech product that will solve growth challenges for podcasters, but also practitioners on a day-to-day basis. So there seem to be two sides to the industry. There are those who make content, the production side, and there are some great conversations with some amazing people doing some amazing stuff. And then you've got the tech side, you've got the people building the hosting platforms or whatever and they never seem to do both or have a grasp of the other. We making a product based on our problems that we had as a production company. So everything is creative first. Everything is creative first. We are talking to someone recently who’s biggest thing that they think that one of the creator's biggest problems is SEO. It's not. Because I've never, ever, ever, ever period had a conversation with a podcast host or creator who's gone, do you know, what's really stressing me out is my SEO, my episodes isn't great enough. They don't care. That's not what they're worried about.
Graham Brown: I bet what they are worrying about is their audience.
James Bishop: They're worried about all the obvious stuff, like how do I make money, how they get more listeners. My answer to that, you get more listeners by building a great brand, stop selling and build brands. Stop worrying about how many listens you get today and think about how would you let someone be a fan of your show and you make money by diversifying, you’re being available in more places to more people doing the most interesting stuff.