Graham Brown: George from Audio funnel and this is Age of Audio, right? So let's get started. So George tells me you spent a lot of your career in, traditional newspapers, traditional media depressor in Austria. What did that teach you about storytelling media podcasts? What did you learn from that? That most people coming into the podcast space don't yet know.



Georg Gferer: First of all, the first thing that I learned, transitioning from this print and more like a written news segment into audio is that audio works quite differently. Some parts are similar, but it needs much more of the classic storytelling components.



That we know when you're into storytelling, then you have your classic components. You need a protagonist if there's conflict and the resolve and all that kind of stuff, the stuff you normally like you wouldn't have in a newspaper article, or you would have that naturally, but just by the nature of the news or what the news is about.



But I think, and that's interesting for journalists to learn now that audio works differently and a newspaper interview works quite differently than a good podcast interview.



Graham Brown: Is it a different mindset or just different logistics?



Georg Gferer: It's different in a way that it's consumed mostly. So when you go to conduct an interview for the newspaper, I'm just referring newspaper. And that goes for the online, the web version as well. And naturally, but if you conduct an interview, for the newspaper, then you know, your people going to be reading it.



So it's more linear, people know they're not on the record like they're on the record, but not on the audio record and so interviews, they can be rewritten, you can reverse the order and you can kind of like really distill them down. And it's really about how we read differently, how we perceive or process stories or information works differently when we read as compared to audio.



And so when you do an interview for audio, for radio podcasts, whatever, I think there's much more that goes into the prep already. I mean, certainly, you have to go be a good interviewer. You have to get the report from the person and try to get the information that you want or want to get the person to say what he wanted to say, but there's much more, you already have to think in those segments where you're like, okay, we're going to need a set up of the story so we're going to need, okay, what happened here?



And why are we talking about this and how did it come to this and how they're changing? So you kind of have to, like, when you layout your interview questions, you already have to think about that. So that is very different I think. What we can learn from the daily news business is that it is about relevance.



It's about thinking about what is relevant in my audience, be it on a daily, weekly, monthly basis and stick to a program, but it's not so much about what will you find interesting, but really thinking about, okay, what is relevant on that day for my audience?



But you got to have a clear vision of what your audience is. I think there's one thing that we can learn from traditional media. I mean, they know New York Times has a different audience than let's say the wall street journal or the financial times.



I don't know the newspapers and Singapore that well, but if there are still any left, so they know their audience and so that's how they think every day. Okay. What is relevant to my audience? And what's the best way to tell that and audio is a great addition to that I think.



Graham Brown: When you say, know their audience, do they have in their mind something as simple as an avatar of the reader, here's the profile, or do they have more advanced knowledge of the audience, like data and so on? Is it really just sort of more qualitative?



Georg Gferer: Obviously data are getting better. And so some are, wasn't always the case. I mean, it took the newspaper business quite a while to get on that train of big data or even small data for that matter, but they do have a clear vision of what their audience is.



I think where they're probably struggling a little more is when you go, like, how do you go about kind of like going off the rails a little bit and or off the beaten track and try to maybe explore new audiences, that new generations maybe that have a different set of values, not necessarily the same, but also not necessarily totally different.



So how do you go about that? And how it's a constant repackaging when you have your newspaper, you have your mobile app, you have your desktop version, and then you have supplements like magazines, and then you have podcasts. So it's a challenge but at the same time, it really gives you the chance to repackage your product.



And that's news is a product after all, and it has to make profits of some sorts to be viable. And so I think a podcast is a great way to, or audio for that matter is a great way to repackage your product to newer, younger generations that might also think differently of you and than you think, and so I think they have classic avatars.



I think, we all do it. It's classic profiling. Where is it? Okay. Describe the read of the financial times, and if we would be sitting in a fancy cafe and, whatever. So I think there's that, but that is getting much clearer.



Graham Brown: If you are advising a newspaper, for example, who was looking at podcasts, what would then be first, the business case for them? Is it more advertising real estate for them or does it go beyond that?



And also then the second piece is if they want to create audio content, what do they do? Do they simply repurpose the news and have somebody read it or do they sort of go behind the scenes or do the backstories the first bit about the business case? What is the business case for newspapers getting into podcasts?



Georg Gferer: Well, it's clearly advertising. So advertising slash sponsored or branded podcasts, I would say. Which is Marcus, like Austria rather small is probably the more interesting one than the advertising that comes from Ad insertion and programmatic, although that's happening and it's starting here slowly, but I think the chance for media entities is to strengthen and tighten their relationship with the advertiser because we had times they kind of gave that away to the media agencies.



And so they kind of, let go of their biggest handler leverage. And that is the relationship with the advertiser, which I think is very important on an emotional level. Of course, it's about numbers and reaches, target groups and whatnot, but at the end of the day, and especially in times of crisis or whatever, that direct relationship with the advertisers is extremely critical. I think they're getting that back a little with that.



And yes, I mean, you could argue, on a business case level, anything a medium does is in the end real estate for advertising, but first and foremost, It has to be something that they care about that they think that their audience cares about and it has to be solid and good. So we have yet to see, I mean, I've worked on a branded podcast that was branded by an international consulting agency and it was good.



I mean, it was very storytelling style and quite a big production and I think they were very happy with it, they were also very cool about it because they didn't ask for too many mentioning or sound low as well. And I think that's the way to go because especially in audio, if you're too much in your face, then I think it fires back on the advertiser.



But going back to the media entity, I think it's strengthening relationships in both ways to the audience and to the advertiser. And as to the audience, we know the audio is probably one of the strongest relationships that you can have because when do you have the chance to get 20, 30, 40 minutes day or week, whatever it is with your audience and they'd totally immerse themselves in your content.



Graham Brown: Yeah. The emotional part is really interesting. Isn't it?



Georg Gferer: Yeah, absolutely.



Graham Brown: We've talked a lot about this in Age of Audio, that audio authenticity, that sort of feeling, the emotional connection as well, which is really in a world of advertising where it's very much being gamed.



Clicks that create some sort of emotional connection is almost like going back to old-fashioned journalism and the old-fashioned media where people felt some kind of strong connection with titles and magazines and publications.



Which has gone really, I think in more recent years, maybe for older generations, but younger generations, absolutely not. They don't get them. They don't get their news from newspapers. It's from Reddit or YouTube. That's where it comes from.



Georg Gferer: So that is a strong case for going into audio and as to how I think it's, you gotta be on brand, be true to your values. Every media entity has that Ashland lifestyle, a journalistic entity, and a media outlet.



And so what I like to do also with other corporate clients is really kind of hearkening back to brand strategy work that I've done before my life in audio, where you kind of, you try to get to the core of what your brand core is and try to define certain parts around it.



That is a set of brand core values. And I apply the same method when trying to conceptualize a podcast. I was like, okay, who are you? What is your role here? And what are we trying to tell?



Graham Brown: Okay, good. Yeah. I'm really fascinated by this idea of firstly on brand and also the emotional part for a newspaper. And I'm sure you've had this conversation before is okay, why audio and not video?



Because it seems like the video is the most obvious channel to go down, isn't it? Because it's immediately visible print is visible. Why should we consider audio over video? How does that work?



Georg Gferer: Well, I do think it's interesting though, but I love the title that you chose Age of Audio because we're now transitioning from the age of screen and to the age of audio. And I think the age of screen, which, lasted about what, 15 years, maybe 10 and it's high, it is really a misunderstanding in mankind, in the human history.



If you look at it as much as I love watching a good show, whatever, but we as a race historically, we've been listening to it a long time before we started reading or watching.



Graham Brown: Even when we were born.



Georg Gferer: Exactly. Yeah. And so I think it's so inane to our nature to listen. And I think, we've lost it for a while. And when I say it's a misunderstanding, just people looking down onto a little box, and what I think is a misunderstanding of the human race.



So why not go video for news? Well, first of all, when we talk about video, we're going to talk about YouTube, or we talk about the act of watching something. So when we talk about the act of watching something, there's lots of news on there still to be, I mean, the public TV, as much as public radio is still getting enormous ridiculous numbers and reach at least here of even private stations.



They've all become very newsy. So there are lots going on that and I think it is a very specific genre that takes a certain set of skills that as does audio but I think goes even beyond that, what we've seen here, interestingly isn't enough. So I think the video game was just lost because I don't know what crazy thing you got to do to get the notes on YouTube right now.



So I think it's just too late for that. I mean, they probably should've gone on that train 10, 15 years ago. And I remember when I was still working, in that industry, it was a constant discussion and I was for it.



But at the same time, it was like, it was impossible to find, to fund because it was already at a time, remember 2008, the newspaper business had already been in a crisis for a couple of years, but it was still going strong.



But then the financial crisis hit and as crisis do, much like this one is just accelerated certain developments that have been coming. And so they were already like financially a lot of them were already with the beg against the wall, and that's usually a bad time to invest into.



I mean, it would be a good time, but companies don't have the money to invest, which probably takes years and millions to invest to make this profitable, let's be honest. And like you said, if you do it half-heartedly, you can't get really wrong. So I think there's so much more that goes into what makes a good video.



Graham Brown: It's a little harder as well. Video production, unless agile

Georg Gferer: audio is so big because yeah, of course, everybody can do it, but you still got to do it well, but if you know how to do it, then it's easier to set up.



That I do think and so that's the funny thing is what we've seen here like nobody's really gone down the video routes here and then news business, but some have gone down to the team like online news TV and they're all really, they're horrible. Just unwatchable. So I don't even know where to do it but



Graham Brown: It's easy. I think that's the reason why they do it. And it's obvious it's the lower risk



Georg Gferer: The TV?



Graham Brown: Yeah, the TV. It's easy to make the decision about doing video. Whether doing it is easier as a different matter, but it's easier to say let's do video because it requires less imagination really, unless thought.



Yeah. You know, if you think about it, I mean, kids produce YouTube videos all the time and without much knowledge and yet some of them are really good. And your point about that window's closed. Doesn't it?



That to become popular on YouTube? You're now competing against kids and that's a losing game because they are in their bedrooms and they've got hours to throw at this stuff and they can get millions of subscribers and that's tough.



Georg Gferer: And they have the audience and it's a different thing if some YouTuber does something that he or she's passionate about in his bedroom and puts out a lot of content. I mean, as you said, it's the amount of content those kids put out is insane.



And so just imagine how would that go about, and in the corporate world, there would be a board meeting or a meeting of editors, managers, okay, now we need a YouTube thing, and who's going to do it. Yeah. Well, he's probably good in front of the camera.



So, that's usually how it works. I mean, in a perfect world, you would say, okay, let's gather a team, let's recruit the people from a TV production of the best host and make something really solid. But that's usually not how it works. Okay. I want us to volunteer. He wants to do extra work for no extra money.



Graham Brown: The social media guy that will be, the intern, I'll do it. Yeah.



Georg Gferer: And then he would do something. Yeah, he's probably passionate about it because journalists, people in general are passionate about what they do, but it would be a product so it wouldn't really feel, maybe that's real.



And then the next question is who do you cater to? I mean, who do you get for it on YouTube? When we talk about newspapers, they tend to have older audiences. They're not really on YouTube and do not get the news. I think so.



Graham Brown: Yeah. There's a really interesting area that, is news getting into audio is a good fit. And it's certainly much as the model of how they produce content. That the challenge is just going to be like, how do they do it properly? How do they get the right people? The real beauty of audio and the conversations really is that you can't put a 13-year-old kid on it and get results because they don't have any experience. They don't have the depth of connection with people yet. They don't have that life experience. And so that's why, especially when you're sort of pitching the idea of audio to brands and you're pitching it to people of age, who now are thinking, okay, like if you go to YouTube, you're going to get your ass handed to by a 13-year-old kid. And you realize some guy who's got 20, 30 years experience. Yet if you did audio, it's your domain. You have the upper hand because you have the experience, you can have a conversation and the kid can't. So I think, that's, I'm not sure people get that so much, but when you explain it to them, they're like, okay, I get it. I get it. I get it. But like they just easily seduced by video and Tik Tok. And whatever's next. That's the hard part. Isn't it? It's investing in the long term with audio. It really is a long-term game.



Georg Gferer: It's not even a marathon. It's an Ironman and not a sprint



Graham Brown: ultra. Yeah, totally.



Georg Gferer: So, yeah, and that's why now we see a real spike in interest in podcasts and lots of people want to do it now. But what also notices is that the awareness of how much like the commitment, the long-term commitment, and as you just said is not there yet. And after the launch of the first episode of a monthly podcast, what are the numbers? What are the numbers? And I'm like, yeah, money too. But it's actually normal.



Graham Brown: Yeah. I've found that monthly episode. It's interesting. Isn't it like, I mean, I've got the data. I need to sort of verifying, I'll do this off record, but I need to get a second run on the data to get the exact numbers.



But we found that the average business, is they're in the business category, which is the meta category under which you got like nonprofit news, entrepreneurship, and so on. The average publishing is 6.3 episodes a month.



Georg Gferer: Wow.



Graham Brown: And you've got people like, yeah, I know Gary V is publishing 30 episodes a month, everyday 30-minute episodes, 30 times a month. And then you've got a corporate saying, let's do this once a month. That was like 2017. But we've moved on. And this is amazing, isn't it?



But I think the problem now is corporates there I've found is like you mentioned about the YouTube stuff is like, the cadence is a real issue because they need to be doing a minimum of two episodes a month to stay in the game and they can't be churning out once a month because they're just going to drop off like that, they get no organic traffic. This is what's happening now.



Georg Gferer: Exactly. And it's so interesting because Marshall McLuhan famously is that in the sixties, the medium is the message. Although originally said the medium with the massage, but there was a misprint on the title of the book, which he liked. And it kind of is true too.



But that phrase, it's still a pole because it is so much about frequency and quantity. Even more probably than quality. I do think the quality is important in the production, especially in the hosting and that kind of stuff.



But I think the problem is, and that is to my dismay, to be honest, it is very hard to compensate with quality, as you said, I mean, Gary V does it every day. It's not really great. Not every day hardly ever, but personally I'm not a fan, but I heard him say once, and I think I really liked that.



He said, marketers ruin everything and it's kinda what do you see going on with Spotify and that whole programmatic ad insertion thing. I like it in scurry for advertisers. I'm not sure it's great for the whole space maybe that's for a different discussion. But it is interesting that the algorithms, really dictate what the medium must be. And it does not promote them a monthly high-quality production.