Graham Brown: What does a guy who's spent much of his career learning the ropes in commercial radio and audio know about podcasting that your average podcaster doesn't know
Gareth Evans: Yet, well, I guess from my point of view, I was making podcasts and producing podcasts, which were kind of radio, spinoff podcasts. Way back in the late two thousand, but we didn't really see it as a craft. Then it was just a new, another strand of the radio help output w we didn't think anything of it. We just approached it in the same way that we produced the radio shows that we were producing. It just happened to be prerecorded instead of life. And I think that the biggest thing that I take, which is for me, Just second nature having produced radio for many, many years is the fact that you want to be making content for the audience and taking that audience first approach. Okay. The golden rules of radio, speak to one person, don't speak to many people, what can you be doing? How is that? How is the content that you're creating, going to enrich that person's life? How is it going to add value to their life? How is it going to make them smile? Make them laugh, everything you do. Is for the audience. There may be brand messages from that radio station that you try and get across, your taglines or promo lines or anything like that. But that's all done through the medium of making content that is for that audience. And for me, that's exactly the same for a podcast. You should never set out to make a podcast with the idea of, I've got this thing to say, I need everyone to know about it. It should be how is what I've got to say, going to be useful and beneficial and interesting to that audience and how can I deliver it in a way that they're going to enjoy it? And they're going to find it entertaining.
Graham Brown: How do you know the answer to that, what qualifies you to say, this is what the audience is interested in. This is what they laugh about. This is what annoys them.
Gareth Evans: Well, I think it's just having that real understanding of who the audience is, nowadays with 1860 making podcasts with brands, that is the first thing we talk about, again, that understanding of the audience, finding out who it is that we're making this podcast for? And if you think about brands they've already done that work. They know exactly who their audience is. They've done the research, they know who their customers are. So it's turning that into, your research for the podcast. And I guess if you're an independent podcaster who wants to set up a podcast again, think about who it is that you want to reach and what's lacking for them. What other things that other people, not audible or the media isn't being able to get through? Tell them where the, wherever the gaps are, how can you fill it?
Graham Brown: Hmm. Radio seems to do that really well, that seems to be how it survived, that it knew the audiences really well. And that was sort of almost like the default position that you would start with.
Gareth Evans: Yeah. And if you think about it from a radio point of view, they exist, they are granted a license because they are able to produce content quite exquisitely for a particular audience, otherwise they wouldn't get a license granted to them. It's the reason when you turn on your favorite radio station, you know exactly what sort of music you're going to get, you know exactly what the tone of the presenters are going to be like because they are speaking to you, is that as that listener, that's why you choose to tune into them. And they just can't suddenly one day decide, to stop playing different sorts of music or completely changed their audio, their Sonic identity because they wouldn't be allowed because that's not why they exist, the license wouldn't allow for it. So I think in radio terms, it's come from one, from just being able to stand out above the other radio stations and through all that competition and from a legal point of view. But, and also because they know that, they know what works because it's tried and tested. So there are so many parallels I think you can draw from that and how podcasting has evolved into the industry that it is today.
Graham Brown: I want to start by looking at your amazing mind. This podcast that you did with the University of Bristol because that's a classic example of everything we talked about is that people often start out on that journey of, this is what I want to talk about, this issue, this campaign, these talking points, and not having the benefit of seen or heard what's possible. People naturally assume that a podcast should be a bunch of interviews. Often one guy interviews another guy with a microphone and these are 45 minutes long and there are six of these in a series. And so somebody comes to you with a proposal like that. That's the way you earn your crust, isn't it? As a producer and a designer of podcasts, knowing actually this is what the audience really wants. So tell us, walk us through that process in terms of. What do you turn that into?
Gareth Evans: Yeah. Well, it's really exciting when you work with anyone, be that a brand or an organization who are willing to sort of trust, their brand and their idea with you, to work, working up into an idea that there's going to sort of chime with their audience. So thinking about how you could create this content in, again, thinking about the audience, thinking about how is this information going to be interesting to them, and trying to set aside any preconceptions of what you think a podcast might be. So in terms of that podcast, it was, The idea is it's supposed to help students who might be sort of dealing with difficult mental health issues. And we're recording this in mental health awareness week at the moment. So there's a lot of talk about this sort of stuff and it's about highlighting the different issues that students face but providing some real advice to them as well. And the original idea that they'd had is, we'll get a student, an expert, and a psychotherapist and room. We'll have a conversation, but there has to be someone who's kind of a great mediator in that conversation to be able to bring that conversation to life, and no, not having any experience, you haven't made podcasts before. That could have been a challenge, but also we're talking about sensitive issues here, so is it right? Is it the right way to go about it to sort of have an open conversation with a student around it and for them to recount a particular issue that's very sensitive to them? And how could we do that in a more, A) sensitive way and B) a way that kind of brings it to life in a bit more viscerally? So what we did is we recorded the student's stories, completely separate, and we put those together with some nice sound design to really bring those stories to life. So the student was having a one-to-one conversation. The interviewer was edited out of that interview. And we got the students to recall their experience in their own words and the podcast starts with that. After that, there is a conversation between an expert and a psychotherapist, and we bring the student back into the conversation as well, but they don't have to go through all those details again, in that group setting, we've already heard that. And I think that there are two ways that I think makes that podcast work is One, you're dividing the content up into sections, which hopefully helps people listen for longer. They're easily digestible sections until you're creating more emotion and more feeling within that content and especially with a topic that's close to people's hearts who might be listed. I think that's really important.
Graham Brown: Yeah. I love the way you've done it and structured it, designed it, I think is the keyword here. The format that you've made. What could have been a very traditional podcast into you and then you've made it about the story. And then the role of the experts effectively is to give it context rather than interview. I think about, for example, the Ira Glass and this American life do a pretty good job. I have not listened to it too recently, but in the early days when that really was sort of like the shining light in audio design and storytelling, I mean, obviously, it came from NPR, so it came from the world of radio first. And he would be the narrator as opposed to the interviewer and then, he would give it context, and then you would go into the story about somebody who owned a diner or whatever it may be. And then you'd hear all the plates, clinking, and that sort of like vibe and the ambiance you get if sitting there. So, somebody's consciously gone into that and said, what is the story and the feeling we want to create for the audience here? Where do you get those ideas from for that? Does it come from just hearing lots of examples of it, or where do you get the inspiration for that?
Gareth Evans: The great thing about podcasts, and as everyone says is it's a low barrier to entry and everyone can try it out. But I think a podcast can really benefit from experience. I think it's undervalued not necessarily undervalued, but just kind of overlooked, I think is the value of some sort of experience in making radio or audio content. And I think that experience is one thing but a huge part of it is just being a listener and listening intently with a kind of a critical, curious ear. So the best film directors are also huge, huge film fans, that huge film that they can recount how things are made and favorite scenes and all that sort of stuff. And the best podcasts and audio producers, listen to lots of podcasts, they're listening to lots of radio. And I think that way you can just borrow things, and be inspired by different things you've heard and think. And I don't think you do it in a conscious way. I think it just naturally becomes, okay, well, I heard this thing once I liked the way that they do that. And I think that just sort of naturally seeps into your work. I don't think it's a kind of conscious thing. I think it's just a case of being just really into that content and into the medium.
Graham Brown: It's patterns. Isn't it? That you've picked up, like music, you are influenced by certain musicians and bands that then imprints on you. You've got these patterns, these called sequences, that riff that bridge, and so on and these become the building blocks, which you take into yours.
Gareth Evans: That's where I think that people's expertise, consensus, own there's real value in experts in their field. So you might have someone who is just obsessed with audio diary-type podcasts, or like in their own words type podcasts, or you might have somebody who had just had a deep passion for documentary podcasts or someone who really knows interview podcasts. And I think that finding the right person to work with who is also an expert in their field, you talked about music. They want to try it, try a new direction, or they want to sort of experiment, they'll hunt out the producers who've worked on, who were specific skills rather than an all-rounder who can do a bit of everything. So I think there are some really talented producers and editors and sound designers out there, but they've all got their specific skills. And I think that can really help.
Graham Brown: Who inspires you then, who's really pushing the envelope in podcasting at the moment? Let me give you some examples and you tell me what you think. I mean, classic examples that people are aware of. I mean, let's say Wondery business walls, for example, which is like one of them, I think number one business podcasts globally. As that as a format, does it inspire you?
Gareth Evans: I think what they're doing, they're creating their own style. And I think that those big companies, Wondery, Gimlet, they've created a style of their own and those Wondery shows are really well produced, great guests, great script, great music. It's what you come to expect. And as a listener, you know that when you switch on one of their shows, you're going to get real high quality. And then as I gave him that had done the same, and in the UK, the BBC have been doing what they've been doing for many years, and still come out with great podcasts that my latest one I'm listening to is the Lazarus heist from BBC world service, which is really eye-opening.
Graham Brown: Well, why does that work for you? Tell us about that.
Gareth Evans: Just cause it's investigative, it's an investigation into what happened with the hacking of Sony by allegedly North Korea, a few years back and how that all unfolds. And I think that they did an amazing job with a missing crypto queen as well and that was another BBC podcast. But what I think the BBC has a huge organization and it's like turning a ship around to try and sort of change the way that they do anything but they've taken what they do really well in making radio. And they've had to kind of adapt for podcasts and I think British podcasts are kind of finding their own sound now, rather than just trying to imitate. What American kind of dictated what a podcast should sound like. I know we're going a bit off-topic here.
Graham Brown: That's an interesting angle. I think A's, cause there are parallels of music, isn't there? Like you learn rock and roll and eat your cheap knockoff of rock and roll, but then you kind of learn your own style and maybe even better.
Gareth Evans: Yeah. And I think that when the US caught onto podcasts a lot Quicker and a lot sooner than we did. And you mentioned This American Life and they're obviously serial and podcasts like that. And they had a particular sound. And I think that people may be inadvertently, or obviously imitated those and those, you hear those, that thing like you turn the microphone on and it's already recording. You record a bit of the preamble and an interview. You hear that on the radio for now in the UK, you hear it on the radio. So those podcasts tropes have transferred onto the radio. And I think that rather than just imitate in a sound of what a podcast should be like, Podcasts have started to influence audio, the whole audio landscape.
Graham Brown: Hmm. That's fascinating. I have noticed that maybe that just creates a more authentic vibe. I've noticed I mean, just off-topic, I suppose it's the same, but like it's a different world, but like in movies and especially on Netflix, there's a specific technique where they don't put the movie camera on the rail, the train track, so it's handheld, so they can have these kinds of one-shot scenes and they're quite shaky. And sometimes you're watching a documentary and you think or like a movie and you think, this is really shaky, why are they doing this? It's like, can they afford like anybody more than the intern to do this, but these are deliberate techniques. It's kind of like that open mic thing. They're trying to deliberately create that feeling of authenticity. That's how I kind of see it.
Gareth Evans: Well, interestingly, I wouldn't a wet and you see it in, in the document. There was one, I can't remember which one it was on Netflix recently, and a TV documentary. You see the person sit down, you see the boom mic in the shot and the screen and that sort of stuff, that would be left on the cutting room floor originally. Now, have they got that from podcasts or did podcasts, where US podcasts influenced by something that they've seen, or maybe it's a bit of a mixture. But I think that we are, I think because we like things that are real and especially if we’re watching a documentary and I think that goes back to what you were saying to people like things to look and feel and sound real and genuine and especially this day and age as well. Everything's all about trust and things like that. That helps to convey that message of reality, I think.
Graham Brown: Yeah, fascinating. Even that boom mic point, I didn't notice that, but now you mentioned it.
Gareth Evans: You will now.
Graham Brown: Yeah, I know exactly. So annoying now it's going to be everywhere, but yeah, these are subtle. It's almost going the extra is more work to prove that you're more real, it's easier to be fake in a sense that you obviously, this can be done by a tech. Audio has this very unfakeable element that you can't fake a human conversation. You can fake a human transaction. Like you can have somebody find up a restaurant and order something and pretend to be a human. But if that person then says, oh yeah, I haven't seen you for like a couple of weeks. How are the kids doing? It's like, boom. It's like no AI could with the kind of genuine authenticity get involved in that conversation. I think that's something purely the strength of audio, that's kind of what we're, I'm an AI graduate. I graduated in 95, like long before it was even a thing. There's like being too far ahead of your time. And I certainly was, there were no jobs in AI back then, but I see like, AI is like enjoying, this is the year of the machine but that's driving this authenticity, whether it is like you say the open mic on radio four or the shaky camera or the boom mic, or the fact that people want audio. That's the age of authenticity if you like, that's coming around because people know, like you say it's all about trust. People know that everything else can be faked. Everything else can be manipulated even like your face on Instagram, or Tik Tok. So I feel that it's like, this is what it's about now. It's about something that's very authentic and very human. And even go back to your case study as well, the real stories from the student, that was how you captured it. That was the right thing to do after having those kinds of like, this is me, this is my story. Not like an interview.
Gareth Evans: Yeah. And I think that remastered is not to mention clubhouse. But not just clubhouse the number of live chat rooms apps and services that are cropping up on all other platforms and what we're seeing is, it's not clubhouse owning that, it's inspiring lots of others to do the same. I noticed the other day, Peanuts, which is kind of a Tinder app for parents and mainly moms, but parents, they've just started a peanut chat. I can't remember what it's called now but peanut chat sort of section, where people can go and have real conversations in real-time. It's basically their own version of the clubhouse. And, it's because you can't filter those things and it provides for some sort of genuine conversation and there my feelings are that it's all great in terms of people are more open to hearing audio now as a, they've always liked listening to the radio and radio is always popular news. I think it will always be popular in its own way, but people are more open to audio as a media, mineral the forms now, and it's not so weird for someone who doesn't really listen to podcasts or listen to audio, to sit there and listen to something anymore. We've all got iPhones and personal headphones sets and earbuds and all sorts. So yeah, I think that it's only natural that sort of these platforms can exist now. But what that does do is it opens up a challenge for how do we keep this content? This goes back to this radio thing, but how do we keep this content relevant? And you can tell that the producers or the clubhouse hosts or the presenters, or whoever is who has a background in kind of broadcast or speaking or how to put, how to design something, as you said earlier on, And I think it's taking that step back again, thinking about who the audience is, thinking about how you can present this in a way that's going to be interesting to them and hold their attention. It's one thing that we didn't mention earlier on, you listened to the radio every 15 minutes, they'll be telling you what's coming up in the next 15 minutes or within the next hour, all the time. It's ingrained in radio and I don't think podcasts do that enough yet. Like there are not that many podcasts that keep reminding you of a reason to keep on listening to the end. And it's okay having it's also when I go to having a huge number of podcast listeners, everyone needs to be looking at the completion rates of those episodes. How many people are actually listening to the end of, what can you do to keep people listening? And that's a huge thing that you can benefit from learning from radio, for clubhouse events or podcasts or whatever you're making.