Graham Brown: Welcome to The Age of Audio, my name’s Graham Brown from the award-winning podcast agency Pikkal & Co. The Age of Audio is a series of conversations with thought leaders and changemakers in the world of audio. Podcasts, Radio and Social Audio converging with big data to create engaging and authentic content for a new generation of listeners.
What I want to know, like from the top is you were in not just podcasts, but also media and media sales for the longest time. So how has that evolved? If you can take us right back. So where did you get your start in media and media sales and if we start at that point in the journey and look at what are the similarities and differences with podcasts today. So maybe we can start at the beginning in media sales. So what was your start there?
Mike Jensen: Yeah, I'll give you the [inaudible] because I think it'll tie back to the passion point, from my perspective of being a marketer and on the sales side, but for representing content. So I started by accepting a job to move out to the west coast in digital ad sales at what was AOL or America Online at the time. We were a team based out of Santa Monica that was building sponsorships around content that was largely on AOL at first at local and then national level. So I like to think of it as the first sort of journalistic content that was aggressively coming on board along with the many great and still to this day journalists at the newspapers. So if you think all the way back to America Online, people sometimes forget that now a great podcaster like Bill Simmons was originally writing for America Online, out of Boston. That's how he got his start on what was our local content, which was digital cities. So I began my career building sponsorships around that content first at the local level, a little bit unsexy, but a lot of fun saying, "Hey, we've got a local newspaper. It's online and you're the biggest Toyota dealer in town. You need to be on here. You're all over everything else." And doing that hands on the... basically out in the field sales and then moving into more larger national brands, a lot of banks and things like that, that we would build out around the content and that content was both local and national, and it was the first start of what today is all of a sudden on our phones and everywhere around us in terms of content for business, content for news, you name it.
Graham Brown: Cool. You really were, I guess in the early days, my background was sales. So my start in business was, having the list, picking up the phone, doing the calls. I had a boss that would tell me, "You can do as many calls as you like, as long as you don't leave the office before you do 120 a day." That was the sort of environment that we were around. We just had to pick up the phone and make those calls, but in those days it worked. It wasn't particularly advanced in technology like we have today, but that's how we learned our trade. And we were wondering what that sort of taught you. Do you think there are lessons in that kind of approach in sales that you still think about and affect what you do today?
Mike Jensen: I think so. I think that you make a really good point about the human connection and how it was the foundation of selling what was somehow 20 plus years ago and how sometimes today that gets lost. And I now run a sales team and I'm always reminding them. There are lots of different data points that we can provide them and details about the shows, but let's keep in mind the human connection here. There's a person that's purchasing a sponsorship and what is motivating them? Like what are the motivations beyond the very basic elements that we need to learn. And sometimes we are not going to learn that unless we have a conversation with them. And that takes a more nuanced tone today because there is a lot of motivation and I totally understand it because I do it as well. To be on email, and to solve this through the narrative word. And I absolutely believe in having good writing skills and faith, but we still need to make that connection to people to understand some of the human elements around what is the decision-making. What concerns do you have about brand safety? What things are you listening to? Because we know that'll impact the decisions they make about what they want to buy. And sometimes I think the team can forget that and I'll say, "Hey, we need to be doing, for example, we need to be doing quarterly calls with the entire team of our strategic partners." And once we really laid those rules in place, I think everybody enjoys the human connection. They just forget that they enjoy it if that makes any sense.
Graham Brown: It makes complete sense. So, what is that pitch effectively for a podcast to a buyer? How is it pitched successfully? Obviously it's evolved and in the early days we didn't have the numbers, did we? And now you have the numbers. Is it like just a comparison of numbers? This is what you'd get on Facebook ads. This is what you'll get on podcasts. This is what you get in print, or is there a qualitative difference that really sells the podcast above and beyond those other sort of competitive channels?
Mike Jensen: So I do need to lean into the day-to-day of what we're doing at Kast Media. And so Kast Media has 40 plus premium shows, 13 million listeners / viewers. They tend to be shows in many cases because we're focused on bigger shows that have a personality. And we really do focus on host driven shows. So specific to your question, we are talking about the influence of the host and the audience slash listenership that they've built. And then, really trying to dive into that connection they have with the audience who they are and what they represent and what expertise, whether it be an expertise in politics or comedy. And usually, that host has elements about their personality and authenticity that really provides for a strong endorsement. And so it's really leaning into that. And it's history repeating itself is what I sometimes remind my team because when I worked at iHeart. One of the most profitable divisions at iHeart is Premier Radio Networks, which is their host driven network within what is the largest audio media company in the world. And that is still, I let them speak to check their numbers, but I know it was one of the most profitable when I left in 2018, I doubt that's changed. And that endorsed messaging and that host authenticity is a premium product. And we need to educate around what you're getting with the show, what you're getting with the hosts and how that messaging is in my experience, the most powerful media vehicle that I've ever represented. I've sold out of home video, TV, print, you name it. But I'm telling you that host endorsement and messaging in a podcast, which has no offense to broadcast radio, a little less ad load in it, has been the most impactful ROI vehicle that I've ever sold in my entire life.
Graham Brown: Yeah. You look at some of the shows that you have. You have people like Sarah Silverman, for example, they've got audiences, they have their followers. So they're ready made, aren't they? In that situation, how does that work? Do you go to the talent and pitch an idea for a show or do they come to you? Where does that normally start? Who's got the idea in that process?
Mike Jensen: So that's a great question because it really does depend from show to show. So we'll dive into Sarah briefly. So argumentatively, Sarah is probably one of the most successful female comedians and built up her career I would say during a time where there weren't as many of those of her level female comedians, right? There've been many incredibly talented women, but she's really jumped to the top and sort of that standup comedian and really built quite a career. So she's got an understanding and then some people that she partners with to understand what she wants some of her storytelling to be. So for that, we're kind of there with her, and we're helping her craft a show, but she's also doing a lot of it on her own with her own ideation and based on her background of success. So that's a complimentary partnership that we went to, which is different from, an original series, like The Opportunist, which is a new narrative series that we're creating where we've built up this story and done all the research in house with our employees. And we basically own the original IP and we're crafting that story from scratch. And so we're hiring what we think are the best people. And we're developing that story from the very beginning, doing the research, every aspect of it. So we're more involved in every aspect. And we're more collaborative in a case like a Sarah Silverman, where she has an idea of what she's looking to do, and we need to help her be knowledgeable about what works in the podcast space. So there's different layers depending on when someone's entering and who they are and what kind of understanding they already have. Because Sarah brought some audience with her too.
Graham Brown: I want to come back to that host ROI in a minute, because I think it's such an important point that people don't really think about it as well. Let's talk a little bit about format. So you've got these narrative formats. You've got these hosts led shows as well. And the way I see the US, especially in the west coast, it's a much more advanced market than any other market, not just in terms of the formats, but the media as well, the advertising networks and I guess one's driving the other as well. That in other markets, especially here in Asia, we've got 4 billion people. Yet most of the formats tend to be and excuse me for being blunt, it tends to be man speaks to man, and it's very dry. It's often starting with a question of what do I want to talk about as opposed to what the listener wants. That sort of format of a man speaks to man that got us everybody started in podcasting. Does that work still? Is there a space for that or is what you're doing now, like the second evolution of podcasts, if you go back to the AOL days, it's like AOL was the starter or Netscape and now we're beyond that now. We're at the next phase. What are you seeing?
Mike Jensen: I hope this because first of all, I want to say I still enjoy broadcast radio, but I guess the messaging is that sort of format that still does work because there’s a lot of broadcast radio, both in the United States and elsewhere. Man versus man, politics, sports, news, like very here's your [inaudible] line. And there's still a multi-billion dollar business driven by listenership, enjoying those very sort of simplistic formats still happening at broadcast radio. So I think that still works. I think what we are experiencing and what you're diving into is obviously in my own estimation podcast is that next evolution of audio, right? Like we're finding all these different categories. Just look at Rewatchable podcast for fan bases for the many shows that have now ended that people love. And that's wonderful because there are these large fan bases and they weren't done. And now you can bring back stars from the shows. It's a healthy way for people to have escapism and reconnect with the shows. And then they cover off beyond the shows and talk about things in society and culture. And I think that's an evolution. I think there's the storytelling in true crime. I don't think we're where we will be. I think there's probably more storytelling beyond true crime. It's just hard. It's like horror movies. Once they work, people keep making them. But I do think we're going to find investigative journalism. I know that I've been very scared about what has occurred with journalism and some of the health of our local newspapers across not just the US but overall. But this investigative journalism that we're seeing is another new age of audio. So I'm super excited about what we're doing to provide more than what the basics are in audio that I think you touched on that are still basically, what's the word, we'll call them tadpoles. But I think these people that are enjoying audio in those tadpoles, they're going to be like, 'Oh, wow'. My mom is in her seventies and she has now found all these different offshoots of politics and investigative stories. And I think that more people will continue to enjoy this sort of next stage of what is great content and great journalistic outlets for people. That we need great journalists and they're doing it. Now they're just doing an audio. I'm excited about that.
Graham Brown: Me too, then back to the host ROI part that let's say I'm a brand. Let's say you pick any brand. It could be, let's say it's a Budweiser. But AB InBev, or any kind of a heavy advertiser by nature. If I was looking at podcasts, their challenges, I think what these brands realize is actually they don't have audiences, they really don't. And I think that's interesting is that they have to effectively, I would say rent or buy or leverage somebody else's audience and hence the host as well. So if I was a brand facing this challenge of deciding what I'm going to do with my budget for podcasts, because, let's explore, let's try this out. I have, on the one hand, a host led show. I find a host, who's talking points and messages match, are on brand with us and their audience, et cetera, et cetera. The second one is I can do, I could commission a series and brand it, like Steve's bring back Bronco for Ford, or I could do - My marketing director to speak to my VP of growth or whatever about our latest products, which is a very rudimentary early stage. Or I can simply just advertise on other people's podcasts. I have so many choices and now that's getting difficult for me. Is there an obvious starting point? I know it's going to be an 'it depends' answer, but generally in those, what's the most effective?
Mike Jensen: Yeah, it's a good question. I think when we talk about, well, you mentioned let's loop back to ROI and host read ads. One of the things that makes for a good sponsorship is an authentic read. And I think for the brand, you have to be honest with your brand, like who are you? So Ford Bronco, there's a lot of excitement about that brand. There's a lot of legacy. I think it lends itself to an opportunity to tell a longer form. And so you can lean into that channel of people. My buddy had a convertible 1988 giant Ford Bronco and outside of gas mileage sitting in the back of that thing and a giant Bronco that also was a convertible. It was a cool thing. So I'm interested in more Bronco knowledge, based on my history. Whereas I think it's one of these, when you're faced with it as a brand, like you're, I don't know. Let's just say Coors Light. Okay. Is there enough stories about Coors Light to dive deep in the history of Coors Light? I'm not saying there isn't, it doesn't necessarily feel the same way. So it feels like in that case, I have a friend who always drinks Coors Light on the golf course. He drinks craft beer. He also drinks Coors Light. If I'm a Coors Light marketer, I think about if we're going to move into podcast and we're thinking about host ads, is there a way for us to find people that are known and have audiences that really believe in Coors Light and if so, let's dial into that because there are a lot of them out there and they are well-known and a bunch of them are probably podcasters. How can we tailor into that? And maybe that's more fun to be had, but in a shorter segment, right? Because the brand is, you just want to try that affinity, the affinity to that brand and a known person or show. And it makes more sense that way. So maybe that was too long of an answer, but I think it's just being honest about where you think your brand is and how it would fit and not every brand fits in every particular slot. Branded podcast, host read versus just targeting the audience of podcast overall and letting them know that maybe you're doing something that would be something that podcast listeners would have a passion for, whether it be a brand that's helping support climate protection from climate change. Do you know what I mean?
Graham Brown: It's gotta be authentic. It's got to have that. And it doesn't always come easily for brands. But I don't know if you heard the Dungeons and Daddies podcast, Mike. It's my sort of favorite at the moment. I'm not a role player, but I've just been turned on to this by somebody else I was chatting to about this. And they said, you've got to check this out. It's five middle-aged guys. Well, it's four guys and one woman, and they do this live role play. And you are talking about the next genre. You should check this out. These guys are making 170,000 a month from Patreon donations, right? 12,000 subscribers. And the funny thing is that their website is like the AOL website. It's like somebody knocked that thing up [inaudible] the gray background and the blue borders on the images. But I'll ping it to you. They've got a whole page of host reads and they've done it like in their sort of acting style. It's not just okay, I've got to get through this. It's obvious that this is an advertiser. They've acted them out. Like with role play, with characters and stuff. So they got like Honda on there and they're just acting this thing out and laughing about it because one guy's a comedian, you got one from the media, but I love the format. And I think that is so honest and so authentic in terms of advertising because the brand has to come in there and say "Okay, you're going to rip this apart, but that's what the audience are going to click with." If you allow yourself to be a little bit more humanized. Yeah. It's an awesome example. You should check it out. It's very fun. It's well produced as well. 12,000 paying subs is certainly something to pay attention to. But when you're talking about, going on beyond true crime, Jeff Goldblum has been roped into a Dungeons and Dragons podcast, a different one called Dark Dice. And so he's going to be a character in it and it's going to be, I don't think it's going to be scripted, but it's partly scripted. And so he's going to be this character in this campaign
Mike Jensen: That feels like good casting to me. That just feels right.
Graham Brown: Jeff Goldblum was a character. He's some magician, I don't know what it is. I don't know the language they use, but I just thought it's awesome. Like his age, his audience. He's obviously popular with an age group. If you go back to the eighties and nineties, you still got it now, but they thought they knew who their audience was. They know who they are targeting and I was looking at tabletop games. They are saying that they've had a 25% increase in sales in the last year. Not because of this, but because of the pandemic. I think that's a potential niche underserved market. Like you've got a really highly aligned and defined audience of middle-aged guys who are spending money on crap basically. They're not spending on bikes and golf gloves. They're spending on tabletop games. I thought it was awesome.
Mike Jensen: I think that might hold a little bit too though. We'll see how that plays out, but I can see the human element and the families and the tabletop. We'll see what happens, but I'll be interested to see if, you know, I heard that biking, outdoor, just regular bikes sales soared in the pandemic. I wonder if there's going to be, it'll be interesting to see what the holding patterns are, because I think we're going to see some. Humans are creatures of habit for both bad and good, but then, forming new habits, some of these, what I would guess are good. You would think that they would hold and stay, we'll have to watch in the next year. Because we're all spending time talking about whether we're going to go back to work or not, but there are these other things we used to do or change what we used to do. And those will be interesting to watch too.
Graham Brown: Absolutely. Let's be positive. My last question to you is it's just about audience growth. Because I think everybody is struggling with this at the moment, there was a time when you could do a podcast and get an audience. In the same way you used to be able to publish a book and find readers and self publish it. It changed like everybody got on board. You look at the numbers now, like 2X million podcasts out there. And I think, now you've got a network evolving certain networks of falling in the same way that radios used to aggregate content, if you like. And then you've got people looking at how we build communities for our podcast. What do you see as working? Because we've got to go beyond the, 'oh, let's make an audiogram and share on social media to grow audiences.' What's working from your side? What are you seeing that's interesting? And who's doing interesting stuff?
Mike Jensen: So it is a difficult answer and a challenging question. We do benefit by being a network and we can promote our shows, but promoting shows to the wrong audience, certainly doesn't work very well. So we have to promote within our network to shows we think are alike, but the more interesting answer to the question would be, I think, one of the things we've been looking at is really making sure we look beyond what people are doing well, which is okay. Let's go find podcasts listeners. Let's trade our shows for other shows, inventory and market our new podcast on other podcasts that we think are alike which does work and it works quite well, but there are other things that are opportunities that you can look at. I'll give you one, for example, that I think that there's more to be done there. So we talked about audio and show creation and moving beyond true crime and there's all these different passionate audiences out there. We have a new podcast. We launched Friendship Onion. It's the two gentlemen that were in the Lord of the Rings franchise. And it's not just to rewatch but of course, they're going to bring back many of the cast from the movies. We reached out and did some marketing through Reddit and all those communities related to those franchises and said, Hey, we're launching a new podcast and we saw a lot of flow. I think the other thing that gets under noticed, and it's not earth shadowing, but like making sure that you're helping your shows with guesting, with authenticity on other shows, but there are vehicles out there like Reddit, and guesting on other podcasts. But you know, other things to create the messaging beyond the world of hoping and begging for Apple or Spotify to promote your show, right? That's more of a wish in some cases than it is a strategy, and no disrespect to those companies, they have a lot of people coming to them. I just think of examples of looking at what a show's audience is, looking at ways to cross promote in the podcast space and then expanding beyond that. And I don't just mean, Hey, post it on social media and look at these sorts of things like Reddit that are blossoming and trying those vehicles now to look for those audiences.
Graham Brown: Yeah, I think Reddit is a great example. It's a tough one though. Isn't it? You can't go on Reddit and be a newcomer and post something. Because they'll just bury you. You have to be part of the community. So there are no shortcuts here which I think is the key part. You've got to know your audience and grow with them and work with these communities.
Mike Jensen: It's a challenge. But I remember in 2017, I was in a meeting. It was a corporate meeting. I won't reveal which company, because I've been in a few, but it was like, okay, can't we buy listens? And the nice answer as I look back is no, you, can't just, it's not like the digital way where you could just go buy clicks. I hope it doesn't become that. I hope there isn't a way that you could go buy listens, but right now, you cannot. And so at least you've got this authenticity to the audience that's our building in podcasts. Sometimes that makes for a hard revenue build when certain brands are looking for scale. I don't know if we're going to see McDonald's ever have a podcast yet. In unique ways, because if they're advertising 99 cent nuggets, you can reach just about anybody to buy 99 cent nuggets. But there also becomes this more targeted play and more authenticity. And I know that everything's going to get bigger and bigger, but I think some of that will stay and we'll see where that goes.
Graham Brown: You've been listening to The Age of Audio with me, Graham Brown from the award-winning podcast agency Pikkal & Co. To get access to all the audio conversations and book content for the age of audio, go to www.theageofaudio.com. One more time - theageofaudio.com