Graham Brown: Welcome to The Age of Audio, my name’s Graham Brown from the award-winning podcast agency Pikkal & Co. The Age of Audio is a series of conversations with thought leaders and changemakers in the world of audio. Podcasts, Radio and Social Audio converging with big data to create engaging and authentic content for a new generation of listeners.
I'm interested in - I want to start with your story about Canadian Politics is Boring. But to start there, I'm just curious about this genesis. I know you've worked for years in BBC and radio, but I want to start with that particular story. Tell us about that. I'm really curious. I think it's quite an interesting insight into where podcasts could go.
Rhys Waters: I moved to Canada like three years ago, just over three years ago now. And my career for the BBC and in TV and radio and everything was largely comedy and documentary and documentary and comedy mixed together. And I came to Canada and that kind of lifestyle and that production style had been so demanding. I was ready to just have a chill life. And I didn't know whether I was going to do any production work again. It was a reset for me and my family. And I realized quickly that I still have skills and experience that I could use, but it was largely kind of dry corporate work, really great clients and everything, but it wasn't necessarily feeding my hunger for competent comedy. And as time went on, I slowly realized that I needed an outlet to make people laugh. I'd had it for 10 years and it's almost like it's very addictive. If you know you can make stuff that gives people a chuckle and you can lighten their day and entertain them. It's very hard to turn your back on it. So, all of my experience had been from being behind the camera, behind the microphone. I'd always worked with other comedians, but I didn't have a lot of resources in front of me. I didn't know a lot of comedians locally. So I was like, do you know what I'm going to do? I can get this project off the ground faster by moving in front of the mic and being in a voice on it . And my co host Jesse who we started the podcast with. He used to perform on [inaudible] state shows. His parents were active. His dad was a very established, stand-up comic on the east coast of Canada as well. So it came much more naturally to him and the show was kind of an outlet really. And, as someone who left the UK, just after the Brexit referendum, I needed to make a conscious effort to stop checking the daily politics updates in the UK. And start engaging with politics in my new country and my new home. So the podcast was a vehicle to learn and then also share my initial reaction to learning about the Canadian system of politics. But with the intention of attracting an audience of people who also were as clueless as us and kind of having a conversation that was not your typical… The podcast is aimed at people who don't like politics specifically in Canada and introduces them to the topic in a way that is hopefully more on entertainment, I guess.
Graham Brown: So when that came to you, landed on your desk, was it, this is the big idea we want you to co-host and produce this? Or was it your idea that you pitched to them?
Rhys Waters: Well, do you know what? It was initially me and Jesse actually pitched it to CBC and we were rejected and we were like, let's just do it anyway. And we then started to build an audience way faster than we ever imagined. And within a couple of months, about two or three months of actually launching the show, we'd been on the front page of Apple in Canada. I don't know how the algorithms just blessed us that day and then our partner network Frequency approached us. I think, so some people from the network actively listened to Canadian shows and they were like, we'd really like a politics show on our network. But not one that is covering politics the same way as traditional news media. So we fit that bill and we signed up to the network with them and we've been with them for just over a year now. And the show has just kept growing. They had the advantage of owning 30 radio stations in Canada. So they just put ads for our podcast out nationally on the radio, which was really helpful for marketing and also magazines that they own and as a quite large media group. And we've just kept growing and growing from there. And we've just, I can't tell you who it's for, but they've just arranged a sponsorship deal for us for a four week period with a major brand that we're really excited about. And I don't think we would have been here without that kind of network partnership really.
Graham Brown: That's awesome. Congratulations. Wow, exactly. So they were a traditional radio syndication network that you partnered up with as opposed to a podcast network per se.
Rhys Waters: And they launched a podcast network a few years ago. I think with the intention of seeing the writing on the wall, podcasts and radio, the way the markets go. And they wanted a stake in the podcast game and their remit is to nurture Canadian content or produce Canadian specific content. So our show was, it was like things just line up sometimes and you're in the right place at the right time with the right podcast, I guess.
Graham Brown: Absolutely. You are the man of the hour. So with that kind of setup, do they own the IP of your podcast? Do you own it and do they get real estate on your podcast to advertise and what kind of deal works out in those networks? Because I'm seeing a lot more people now and networks forming, but also people looking at them as an option for the audience growth problem, which is the problem that everybody's facing at the moment.
Rhys Waters: No, we retained the IP because of our experience making a TV show. That was our idea, but we didn't own the IP. That was an emotional period of emotional turmoil for me, where it was like, but this was our idea. We should own it. But, we weren't smart enough with filling in the right contracts at the beginning. It was very early on in my career when I was in my early twenties. And we were just excited that someone wanted to work with us. The more jaded weathered version of me in my forties was very much like, "Nope, we're keeping the IP." So it's a partnership where they put ads on the show and we split the revenue. They have a team of people who do ad sales on the radio and on TV and in the magazines who are actively trying to find brands who want to advertise on the podcast network and some specific shows in the instance of the new deal that we were looking at. So I think the network works really well because they're having conversations with potential advertisers that I could never have. I don't have a team of people in Toronto, but now we're part of an organization that does, which is really useful. I think the growth of networks is because of the monetization of the platforms. And because you now have celebrities setting up podcasts. I love the amateur era podcasting age, in a way where everyone was in their basement or in their bedroom recording as money has not flown into podcasting and it is harder for those shows to grow and succeed, which is not impossible, but they're not as visible or it's not as easy to discover them. So I think those kinds of networks, whether they're informal networks, whether they're actually like, “Hey, we are a group of artists making this show. We can have a lot more power together sharing our audiences and promoting each other.” I guess it makes sense. We might have clusters of these networks that can work together to a common goal. There's a few that spring to mind that exist, like for instance, Maximum Fund, that network, the comedy network in the U.S. A friend of mine, Ben [name] just got a show on there. He's a British podcaster, but his audience is going to be a larger audience in America and their network works really well. It's not like the same kind of network that I'm a part of. It's a collective of podcasters working together to support each other's shows and things. So however the network is structured and who owns it and how it's spelt. I think I can see more shows pulling in their collective power together, I guess.
Graham Brown: I would be interested to learn, for example, how a young comedian establishes themselves today. If you're a comedian, your default would be doing the gigs, wouldn't it? But even today, you look at that as an option. It's not really feasible for a lot of people just because of what's going on. And then, what do you do? Do you break into TV? Well, that's gonna take a lifetime. Then you look at something like a podcast network and think maybe that's what I need to do. If I'm a comedian, I just have to start my own show. And let's say Rhys was advising a young comedian just starting out. What would you advise him or her to do in the podcast game if they wanted to break into it today in 2021-2022?
Rhys Waters: To choose comedy is a great example because it is one of the most popular genres, one of the most competitive, and one of the hardest to kind of rise in. But I guess I would say before they even start thinking of launching a podcast, I would [inaudible] as many podcasts you can find that listen to as many podcasts you can find and really engage with their content and get a sense of their sense of humor and think, well, I could actually add my humor to this and then send them a really nice email about which episodes you like and what you like about this show say, "Come and be a guest." I think that often, the emphasis on launching a podcast, if you put that time and energy, because it does take a lot of time and a lot of effort to launch, to develop a show that is going to work first, then also to make it, and then also to promote it and get it to grow. But if you put all that time and effort into appearing on shows that already exist and approach them in a meaningful way where it's not kind of a mass email that you send out, it is much more of a - this episode really spoke to me. I really like that dynamic you've got. They're more likely to reply and go, well, if someone sends me an email about podcasts that I'm working on or about Canadian Politics is Boring and they listen and they give you some really insightful thoughts on what they did or didn't like about it. You pay attention because you appreciate that they've engaged with what you've created. So I'd say that if I was a comedian, I would do that and I'm still doing it now to promote Canadian Politics is Boring. It's young or it makes total sense because you can then reach a new audience and then over time you might go, "Do you know what? I'm going to go back on that show a year later, but this time I will have a podcast to promote. I've built an informal network of shows I've been on and now I can go back on there and promote my show.” There's a huge amount of opportunity, even if you don't necessarily have a show yet.
Graham Brown: Yeah. I love this approach. I just recently have been trialing a podcast guesting service. For every one podcast, there are effectively 20 guests. And like you say, I mean, it's a great way to test it out. Maybe you're not ready for a podcast yet. Maybe you should do a bit of research. Maybe you can kind of get a feel for it. And maybe you can get a feel for what you're good at as well, at being a guest. It is gigging, isn't it? I mean, whether you're a comedian or musician, it's going on gigging in the modern sense.
Rhys Waters: With spending the hustle money on the petrol.
Graham Brown: Sleeping in the back of the van, right? Yeah. I think it's such a fantastic opportunity and the ROI is huge. I mean, you and I both run agencies, production agencies. Don't want to sell ourselves out of our own work, but the ROI on guesting is the highest I think because you don't have to produce, you can just plot, you don't have to build an audience as well. You plug in. And doing it together with a podcast, your own podcast is really the win-win, isn't it? And what have you found from being a podcast host and guesting in terms of how that's brought traffic across to your podcast?
Rhys Waters: I've seen instances where just being a guest on the right kind of show with the right offering and I'm trying to work it out in my head. I mean, it's at least 15 times the downloads the day after release. Because the show was a lot bigger and just getting the right offering and offering the right kind of style and voice and tone and matching the hosts well. Once you build that kind of level of thoughts into it, you can really entice the audience because don't just go on any podcast. You've got to make sure that you almost fit seamlessly with what they're doing as hosts and the energy they've got. I think that if you can add to it and make people even might just get four or five great one-liners in there. And that might be enough to get people to go. I'm going to check this person out. I like their sense of humor. So I think I've seen it really over-perform in terms of in the right context where you've got, when you've got those things. I've done other ones where I got it a bit wrong and it wasn't the right kind of show and it's zero impact. I think that the quality of that engagement is a real indicator on how much of an impact it will have.
Graham Brown: 15 times?
Rhys Waters: Yeah.
Graham Brown: Not even 10X.
Rhys Waters: I mean, the show was massive. I was really lucky to get on it.
Graham Brown: That's the point, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, the point is that it would take you a lot longer to do that yourself and reach the right kind of people.
Rhys Waters: And also I think people forget sometimes that people struggle to actually, if you've got a regular show to find really good content is a struggle. So if someone turns up and they go, “Hey, this is me, this is you. This is what I can offer you.” They might go, “Yeah. Can you do it next week?” I think that people often forget that even if it is a big podcast, sometimes people are still doing them alongside their jobs and the battle to find good, meaningful content after running a weekly show for two years is real. So, it might turn up at the right time and just have the perfect offering for them.
Graham Brown: If you think about comedians and artists I suppose in general, they do spend a lot of time appearing on each other's stuff. I mean, you look at, for example, Joe Rogan. That every next guest is a comedian that's on and they've got that sort of regulars, haven't they? They keep them in the carousel of Joe Rogan, weird and wonderful guests that keep coming back. But some of those guys have their own podcasts as well, commentators on UFC and so on. But that really is a media model that's been around for a while. TV is famous for it, especially chat shows. But there was no sort of sense that in podcasting people were already doing the same, maybe they just didn't know. And they had to learn that this was the model. I’m thinking more now, like host sharing, you do mine and I'll do yours or those kinds of things that to me is really the underserved market right now. And what are you seeing there? Are you doing any host swaps? Are you doing - where you'd go on their podcast, they would come on yours? Are you seeing anything like that in your market that's interesting at the moment?
Rhys Waters: We've done a lot of joint episodes where it's almost like you merged the two podcasts together and then you both release it on both feeds.
Graham Brown: So you record it together. And then that's pretty cool.
Rhys Waters: So we've done hybrid shows where the show is quite similar in style to what we do and then we'll both do it as bonus episodes. And I'm one of those people who really loves making bonus shows because we do like Canadian Politics is Boring, for instance. We do a weekly comedy show that is 20-30 minutes long. We cover a topic, me and Jesse, we get through it, we put it out, but then I love any other kind of host swaps or anything we do is in the bonus content. But also I see the bonus content as a place to experiment because we've established this audience that seems to like that weekly show. We put surveys out to our listeners and overwhelmingly 94% are like, just keep doing the weekly show, but I will listen to bonus content as well. So we do things like, we did a Halloween special, which was just reading a story with sound effects and spooky music and just experimenting and doing those kinds of opportunities and those swaps. I found it really, if you're giving people the thing they tune in for, and then you add this extra layer of seeing what sticks. Sometimes we were doing improvised commercials for fake products, just whatever, whatever fun stuff you want to throw out there. And we usually then those good ideas that come out of it, or the things that really catch on, we then can bring back to the main show or integrate to the main show if we go, “Do you know what? This is working.”
Graham Brown: Yeah I like that. And that is how we need to think about podcasts evolving constantly. We can no longer have this. I mean, you talked about the amateur DIY podcast in the basement. That's got to start it. But now we're faced with the reality that you look at the numbers now. The average listener per podcast has gone down in the last five years because the number of podcasts has outstripped the number of listeners, right? I mean, you wouldn't get that at the beginning of any market where there's an imbalance, it's like with the book publishing market, self-publishing, there's much more weighted towards the reader. So if you published on Amazon, you had an audience, but then everybody caught onto this idea that you could make money publishing books. And so, you saw 10X in the growth of books. And it's the same with podcasts now, right? You've seen a massive growth almost double in the last 18 months. So now you've got this problem that you don't have these ready-made audiences. And now people have to think about how do I grow an audience? Because by virtue of having a podcast, I don't have one. It's now classic back to book publishing. Actually writing the book was only half the work, right? It's the hustle that comes after. What's working for you, not just for Canadian politics, but also the other titles you've worked on, the agency title? In terms of growing audiences, we've got to go beyond, "Okay. Let's do an audiogram and share it on social media Okay. That's fine. But let's talk about how you really grow an audience.” And what's working in your experiments in this area?
Rhys Waters: I think that the most growth that we've made with some of the brands is thinking about the podcasts from the point of view of building a community around the podcast. So seeing that the guests that we have on the shows, equipping them with tools and the resources and might be audiograms and images to make sure that they can then go out and be really vocal about the fact that they were on the show and that they took part and they had a good time. And they're now part of this community because they were on the podcast that really helps in making sure that anyone who gives you the time is then an advocate for the show. And will talk about it. And then the more guests you have, you kind of build that momentum of, after a year you've got a community of maybe 50 people who have been on the show and talked about your show and promoted your show and then extending that community onto those other platforms, such as Facebook and wherever you might find your audience or wherever you see them. A lot of really successful independent podcasts have closed Facebook groups or they have subreddits or they have these discords running that allow them to have a really exclusive community for their listeners. And I think that having that in mind, because anyone who launches a podcast says that ‘this podcast is aimed at everyone.’ That's a very hard thing because even Joe Rogan, people love him and people hate him. I think that he's the largest podcaster in the world, but there's more people who wouldn't listen and aren't listening. Still in fairness, he's the biggest show. So anyone who is aiming for that has to understand that people will not like your show. People will leave terrible reviews, but other people will leave very good reviews. And what you've got to do is focus on nurturing those people who are those really engaged listeners at the top of the listener pyramid, who are like, “Go into… share with your friends,, maybe buy a t-shirt, whatever it might be.” Building a community around those people is essential to any podcast growing because they're your advocates, they're your team. And part of that is understanding the contract you have with them, where you're giving them good content that speaks to them. And you can't take that for granted because if you keep developing the show in a way that the community still feeds off it and enjoys it and celebrates it. Then, your show will grow as that community spreads and attracts more like minded people.
Graham Brown: There were a lot of interesting points in there, Rhys. The community part definitely now that's something that radio did well, wasn't it? They knew even to the point about, I mean, you mentioned Joe Rogan. I see that as a very blanket approach that he had to podcasting, which is, oh, yes, it wasn't everybody, but it was very broad and it doesn't work anymore. That worked because he was Joe Rogan in the beginning, but now it's going to be real niches. And even like, I mean, you can't crack it in comedy. You've got to be in a niche. And you've got to have an underserved market, identify it and go for that. And, you mentioned some really interesting things like the Facebook groups and discord, for example, and I'm very curious about this area. The way I see it and we'd like your thoughts on this is that, that if you would think about analogies between where we are and where we were in radio and music many generations ago, like my generation, the oldies that if you think of where we are now, you've got like social audio. So you've got lots of, or just communities, which are like Facebook groups, discord channels, Clubhouse, et cetera, et cetera. And then over here, you've got podcasts and you go back 30 years and that maps quite cleanly onto radio and music. Like you have to have the property, which is the IP. Which is "Okay so I own this song and it's going to make IP royalties for 60 years from now.” And you need airplay. Get on the radio, you need to get the DJ to play this thing. So we kind of got this situation emerging, where you have this show. Now you need to play. Okay. So I need a community. I need to get onto a Facebook group. I need to do Clubhouse. You go out and hustle and that sort of seems to be a similar model emerging. I'm just wondering what's worked for you in that space, in terms of the hustle, getting out there, building community apart from getting on other people's shows, have you cracked anything that you thought, well, I'm really hacking this at the moment. It's really growing.
Rhys Waters: I think opening a dialogue with your listeners and not seeing them as a mass of an audience, understanding that you need that two way conversation. So this week we released a survey for our listeners, just because we're looking at for Canadian Politics is Boring specifically ways we can, where to develop the show and how do they feel about the commercials we have running on the show and should we have a Patreon and would people be willing to take part in that before we even just tried it out and launched it? We started with the point of view of going well, “The last year has been a rollercoaster. We built the show and we can't believe that we've got so many people downloading every week and listening and sending us emails and participating in it. If we're going to start changing the show and developing it, we need to do it with them.” And I think that the level of engagement with that survey was mind blowing. And this was just something we shared on our Instagram and it hasn't even been mentioned in the episode. The episode where we ask people to fill it in drops on Monday. And we've already got more than enough insight from just that social media posts that I can't wait to see what else comes in. So, I'd say like really engage with your listenership, share a very simple survey with them. We used the Google survey platform, don’t know what it’s called from the top of my head.
Graham Brown: What kind of insights did you get from that? Like what kind of things do they tell you?
Rhys Waters: I'll bring up my survey so that I can give you some ideas. So we were asking questions like, but do you like the weekly format? Would you like a show that was less often but longer and more in-depth and overwhelmingly the answer was no. I think it was something like 94% of people just wanted the show to kind of continue with a weekly format. And then we were asking questions, like even simple data. We didn't ask for their names or anything, but it was like, what is your age? Where do you live? So we started to build a really good idea of the fact that most of our audience seems to be clustered in Ontario which is interesting because if we ever want to do a live show, then realistically we should start with Toronto because that's where we're more likely to sell tickets. And then other information like a [inaudible], would you be interested in the [inaudible]? Would you like an enhanced experience of bonus shows that nobody else can listen to or a monthly live stream where you can hang out with us for a couple of hours. And we got good information on, yes, no and maybe, and then also how much they'd be willing to pay for it as well. And then also people could leave comments on how they felt about the commercials we have so far. And a few people said, “Oh, we don't like them.” But overwhelmingly, people were saying, “I like the show. You shouldn't be making it for free. If you can get commercials on, then I support that because you give me a show every week and you should be paid to do that because I listened to it.” So, it was really interesting. As someone who's British and grew up watching the BBC where there were no commercials, I would kind of, I'm making TV shows without commercials. I've always been a bit like, oh my, oh, I'm really worried about how people are going to feel about this. I think they are going to reject us because we've sold out to a monthly [inaudible] level, whatever it is. And the answer was like, no, again, this is for free. So if I've got to listen to a commercial and if it offends me that much, I can skip. It's fine. So that information really reassured us about where we should take the show next and also I hope that the people who are really engaged with the show, the listeners who really like the show feel consulted so that when we do make those decisions, they go, “I played a part in that. I participated in that survey and they listened to me and I've helped them develop the show further.” I think that that has been a real huge hack for us and something to share with other podcasters and to talk about because that audience is smart and switched on and engaged and emotionally attached to what you're doing. So proceeding with their help is you've actually got army of advocates who are there to help you and support you really
Graham Brown: What a great case study. That was a good share. It's really cool. Really good. I like it. And that's something to take on board for people to think about, for sure.
Rhys Waters: I'll share the results with you. Once the survey is complete, I'll send it over to you.
Graham Brown: Like just the insights is fine, but I think what you shared already is cool. About advertising, my pet podcasts at the moment. I'm pimping around to people. I'm not involved in that but somebody pushed it my way and said, “Check this out.” It's really funny. It's not a comedy podcast, but it's called Dungeons and Daddies. There's five. Well, there's four women and a guy. Sorry, four guys and a woman, and they're all of an age. One's a comedian, one's from the media. They've all got like, got the backgrounds. These guys are making $170,000 a month from Patreon. And the content is really good. I mean, they play it live. They play Dungeons and Dragons live and then they act out, which is funny. And the thing I really like about it is you go and check out their sponsorship page. They do all the read throughs with humor. So they've got a Honda but they're just laughing about this and I think that is how you do it, isn't it? If you're going to do a read through, it's like, “Okay, look, we own this. We're going to do it in our style. I'm not going to do this like the BBC presenter style. It's going to be us.” And then that is authentic, isn't it? That's pretty cool. If you got them laughing and doing these sort of dramatic Honda reenactments in role-playing stuff.
Rhys Waters: Exactly and that's cool. And also the audience guess it. We were just doing some test records for some whole straight ads for this new project we're doing. And in fairness they seem to really understand that if we didn't do this in our style and in the tone of the show the audience will just go, ah, it's just a normal ad. Whereas if we let off the leash and we do it in the dry, sarcastic cynical way that we would do an advert and the audience knows we would like to do it. Then the audience is more likely to look at that brand favorably because they're going well, they'd been playful with this. They're letting them kind of make fun of this process and the shows that are the shows that I think that's really powerful that they're able to do it in their own style and the audience then views them and the brand favorably because they're like, ah, actually this is just entertaining. And I find it quite funny that they can riff and do these ads in their own style.
Graham Brown: Yeah. That's the future. It totally is. I love it. These guys are raking in doing it as well. So it's not intrusive as well.
Rhys Waters: No. And the thing is, I love the power of Patreon. They don't need those brands, but the thing is the brands have to come to them and go, “Hey, here's some money. Could you talk about this? And of course do it your way, do what you want because your audience loves it.” They've got that insurance of the Patreon money. They don't have to compromise or change, the audience is brought into who they are and what they've created for what it is. And they obviously love it. And it's up to the brands then to do the work. The brands have to turn up and go, “Please, can we be on your show? And please make fun of us and do it your way.” Which is amazing, rarely does that happen. It's amazing. I love the fact that these very niche specific shows are just having a good time in front of their audience. They have the power, I guess, to really dictate who they work with and how they work with them.
Graham Brown: Yeah. It's not a comedy riff, but I was chatting with Steve Pratt from Pacific Content emitting some high quality work at Vancouver. And he was saying about the, I don't know if you heard the Bring Back Bronco.
Rhys Waters: Yes. Yeah, I have. Pacific content, the work they do is amazing and like the way they seem to be able to turn a brand story into just documentary entertainment is amazing.
Graham Brown: Yeah. They've got some great writers, the one they did for Ford. So I know what a Ford Bronco looks like. It's a classic pickup truck you've seen in the movies and it's very iconic. And he was saying that there was one episode where they had the OJ Simpson truck. That was the one that he was involved in that chase in. The live televised get-away from the police. And initially when Ford came to them, they were like, “Oh no, we can't do that one.” But they said, “Look, you've got to do the OJ Simpson episode. Because that's what people want to talk about.” You think just like being playful with the brands. In the old days, nobody would let you do that. Oh, we've got to hide that one. And the actual episode itself is they have, they go to some, like an automobile museum. And they're everywhere in U.S. obviously. And they've got this Ford Bronco, which is actually parked next to Ted Bundy's Volkswagen, which he used to stash their bodies. And they're talking about this stuff, right? And this is all on the Ford podcast. I love the idea that these brands can be authentic and pretty much lose control, seed control is the word I suppose. And it is very rare and refreshing.
Rhys Waters: I imagine you've got experience working with ad agencies and my experience with ad agencies is that there's always a lot of control and shaping of the message and sometimes it can be painful for them to understand the podcast world. I know that we've tried so hard with some agencies to show them, pitch ideas and go, “Hey, and this is how it works.” And the kind of the ability to kind of relinquish that control and understand the effectiveness of giving the brains to the podcasters who know their audiences. Because they don't want to mess up this relationship. They want to promote the brand, but they want to do it in a way that is endearing to their audience. And I think advertising is now coming around to that, but that the traditional agency model is about controlling and shaping the message. And this is the antithesis of that. This is - here’s some free stuff. Here's some money, test the products out and talk about it. And that's going to be terrifying for some people in that traditional model.
Graham Brown: Oh, yeah. I want to see that one blow up for them. It's like the old days when the housewives stand on the, she stands at the door and the guy's pitching whiter than white laundry detergent. It's all actors, isn't it? I mean, now with the real people, that's the point, isn't it? Advertising has used proxies for the longest time. That burger chain uses a clown, right? It's not a real person. And now we're in this world where brands have to not only do everything you say, which is allowing people to have their say. They have their version of the story, if you like, but also their own people have to have a human face and a voice. And that terrifies a lot of people. But I think it's an exciting time. I'm loving it. I'm loving some of this stuff coming out at the moment and it's still the minority. More of it. So come on, Rhys. We need more. Let's start the revolution with these guys.
Rhys Waters: I'm so desperate to talk to you about the thing that I got going on, because I'd love to share this stuff that's coming out. Just the thing, but as of next month, it will be a thing that I can talk to you about but yeah I'm having to come back and share the insights after this weird rollercoaster.
Graham Brown: You've been listening to The Age of Audio with me, Graham Brown from the award-winning podcast agency Pikkal & Co. To get access to all the audio conversations and book content for the age of audio, go to www.theageofaudio.com. One more time - theageofaudio.com