Graham Brown: Okay, Alex let's jump straight in. Let's talk about the radio. You've spent a big chunk of your career in the world of radio. I'm curious now, what does somebody in the world of podcasting not know that somebody from the world of radio knows almost instinctively, that you've been trained, that you learned with your craft.

Alex Graham: Yeah, that's a good question. I think it comes up quite a lot with my podcast clients and how I get them to address their audience. I think that's kind of the key thing, really that radio has nailed down almost instinctively that a lot of the modern-day podcast creators, I don't think have locked down yet. It's that way they address their audience. I think it's the classic addressing the individual rather than addressing the masses. And that's often left behind quite a lot with podcasting. I think typically because most people who are hosting podcasts or running their own shows have never had that radio background. And perhaps they've never really thought much about how sort of traditionally trained radio presenter will talk to them, I guess.

Graham Brown: How would they do that? What would a traditionally trained radio presenter do?

Alex Graham: Yeah. So I guess it's more talking to the individual. So using the I’s, you’s, we’s sort of addressing the singular person, even though you're talking to, in some cases, millions of people on the other end of the wireless, addressing them, everybody so they feel like an individual and I think podcasters, a lot of them have never really realized that. And I think, again, it comes back to that perhaps lack of training, lack of thought process, never really considered how to address so you hear a lot of podcasters talking about you guys, the listener, audience, everyone out there. For me, that's bad form. And I think podcasting is brilliant because it allows you to create these niche communities really easily around niche subjects, whatever it might be, and talking to your audience in that way as a radio presenter would do. I think that would only help them massively.

Graham Brown: You mentioned that word - ‘you guys’, how many times have we heard that? I mean, I see it. I hear it a lot on YouTube as well. ‘You guys, you guys.’ What is it that you learn on the radio? At what point does somebody in the editing room beat you over the head, the young Alex, when you starting out always talk to the individual, some graph editor or like, is this something you learn at university or where does, at what point does that become ingrained in your radio personality?

Alex Graham: Yeah. I think, I mean, obviously more often than not you start working in radio with a really well-experienced presenter. More often than not you're kind of paired up with the most experienced talent, whilst you're learning the ropes and those guys know it like the back of their hand. So I think it's kind of just instinctively practiced without any afterthought. Of course in university, studying radio is something they tell you, you're taught how to address your audience and create that level of intimacy between you and the listener. Working in radio is just practiced without thought. And then eventually as you start to develop your producer skills or your, whatever it might be, then you start working with younger talent or up and coming talent. And I think that's when you start to use them, be able to put that into practice. Some people come into presenting without ever having that knowledge. And so then you, you're able to start repeating it and educating the newer presenters, and then hopefully it sticks with them forever.

Graham Brown: When you started in radio, you must have been exposed to one of those old hands. Many years in the game, but just working with them, it's probably like watching or absorbing a master at work.

Alex Graham: Yeah.

Graham Brown: What did you personally experience? What was that like for you?

Alex Graham: Yeah, I mean, I've worked with a lot of really old, fantastic talent, people that have been around the game a really long time. My time with the BBC, I worked with a presenter called Julian Clegg. He's retired now, retired a couple of years back, but at the time he was the longest-serving, BBC breakfast radio presenter in the country. He'd been doing a show, I think, for around 25 years on the same show, five days a week. And so, working with him was a huge boost in knowledge and experience for me. Being able to work with somebody that's got a quarter of a century of experience, sat in the same chair, running the same show with a huge audience. It helps you grow as a producer tremendously.

Graham Brown: I'm curious what producing those as well, because when we've talked about podcasts as an example, that I'm sure you've experienced this as well, Alex, that brands, podcast hosts come to you, and as they to do me and say, okay, “We're a SAS software company. This is what we want to talk about. We want to talk about this” And it may not be as rudimentary as we want to talk about our products because they know people are interested, but they may be one step above that, which could be, for example, we want to talk about this idea that we have, which is, let's call it a beautiful business, being that, our products create this wonderful work environment for everybody in the remote world. And like, if you had that idea in radio, how far would that get? What role would a producer have in this to anchor that in actually what audiences want?

Alex Graham: So, you mean, if a station we're trying to come up with a sort of a niche idea to address a certain type of audience, is that what you're asking?

Graham Brown: Well, let's say, okay. You're the producer/commissioning editor for your radio station. And I say, I've got this great idea. It's not an advert, but I want to talk about these things. How would you then sort of anchor me in reality, because this is effectively 90% of podcast conversations these days, isn't it? We want to create a podcast about X. And there's been no conversation about, actually what is the audience want?

Alex Graham: Yeah, of course. And I guess each station has its own remit, suppose in, into what they're looking to do for their audience. So, you're always working within the station’s strengths and typically, managing editors won't allow ideas to pass through that don't have some relation to your audience. So, if you're working for a regional BBC station, for instance, then say you're working in the South Coast of the UK, for instance, as I was, you're not going to be pitching ideas that are about Manchester or Scotland or London, because it's not relevant to your south based audience. So, I guess you're always having to think about what your audience wants and who they are always and how that is changing and also how the station is looking to approach new audiences. So a lot of BBC regional stations over the last couple of years have been making a real hard push, trying to capture the younger listener. Typically their audience is very old, 50-60 plus in many cases. And they've been trying really hard for the last couple of years to find the younger listeners, but it's kind of an impossible task really because your average station listener ages, say 70 years old, how do you start addressing and finding the 20 year olds? So, yeah, I guess it's just thinking outside of the box, thinking about the resources you've got available to you and the topics and who your audience are, and then trying to combine those in a way that makes something compelling to listen to on the radio or supplementary podcast, I suppose, in some cases.

Graham Brown: If I can take you back Alex, to a time when you were a producer of a Jazz FM.

Alex Graham: Yeah.

Graham Brown: To what extent, did you know who the audience was? Were you just aware that, ‘Okay, these are people interested in jazz music,’ a certain type of music or did you know who they were, what their names were, where they lived, what kind of profile they had, what kind of granularity did you have?

Alex Graham: Yeah. And I joined jazz initially as kind of a, it was on a work placement through university. So I did a month with Jazz FM as part of my course. And then that led on to doing sort of intern work at festivals. They hosted a yearly festival, jazz festival in Brighton. And so it grew from there. And then as I grew as a producer, then I was in a place where they were able to hire me as a producer, after having trained me quite loosely on the station. So I knew nothing about jazz music when I first joined and then left knowing a fair amount about jazz music. And I think what, again, a lot of podcasts creators forget is that a good managing editor or a good content team, any radio station will be able to single down, who their listener is, how roughly, the age they're going to fall into, what they like doing on the weekends, what their social activities are, what they listen to, perhaps what they listen to outside of the specialist music that the station is playing. And I don't think podcasters quite realize the deep knowledge or at least claimed knowledge that radio stations think they have through various studies and things of that listener. But yeah, it does go quite, as you say, quite granular, into their interests, their likes, their dislikes, and who they are as people. I'm thinking that allows you to talk to them in a much more personable way. And that's what makes a good presenter or a bad presenter is knowing who you're talking to and how to talk to them.

Graham Brown: Did you have any image of them in your head when you were producing this content? Was it a particular avatar, in advertising in the old days they would have called it the ‘Pen Profile’. They would've given her a name and where she lived and so on. Then they talk about them in that context. I wonder if you humanized it in that way.

Alex Graham: Yeah. It's like when you work in, I don't know if you've ever done many sorts of retail work, but I used to work in cinema. And one of the first things they give you is a pamphlet that tells you exactly who the four categories of cinema-goer are and what they'll typically buy-in and how to address them and things like that. And I think it's very similar to radio. Yeah, I guess you do think of who's listening, and time of day matters greatly to that. If you've got a specialist real, crazy music show in the evening, it's a very different audience to the people that are listening to the business breakfast show early doors, or they're listening to the normal breakfast show or perhaps a DriveTime show. The listener changes throughout the day. But often their key interests are the same, they're all united by their love of perhaps the music or the topic of the station. Each show has its own audience and a good presenter will know who that audience is and how to talk to them in my opinion.

Graham Brown: Yeah, absolutely. Totally, right. It makes or breaks. I mean, radio, was in many ways, a sunset industry in the eyes of so many critics for so long, but it outstayed digital and a big part of it was it had all of that. It had great talent and it had a connection with the community, didn't it? And especially local radio lived and died by that connection. You mentioned, jazz festival as an example, a radio station being involved in a local festival. If we sort of step back a little bit from radio and step outside of the day-to-day of that, and look at how radio interacted with its audience, there was a massive part of it, wasn't it? And look at where we are in podcasts. It's almost an afterthought. I'm just wondering where all the different ways radio stations were part of communities interacted with listeners from the very rudimentary phoning. How much of that is a part of a radio station, the local phone, just people talk and for no reason at all, often apart from just the kind of connect with other people and then festivals and so on. Tell us about that. How much was that part of what you did and how important was it to the radio station in general?

Alex Graham: Yeah. I think my experience with it's quite unique, I guess, in the sense that my early radio career started with Jazz FM and very early into that was working in the festival. So my first exposure, outside of the local commercial stations or community stations and the hospital radio, which kind of where most people start. My first real experience of radio started as a national specialist music station that’s pretty successful and also runs its own festival. It wasn't sort of just part of the festival at the time when I did it, they were running the festival. It was their thing. And so I guess it was quite unique in the sense that I was thrown in not at the deep end because it didn't make things more challenging, but it was brilliant to be able to interact with the audience directly right away. Jazz FM has a double deck of a bus in this field, in this festival that they broadcast from. It is converted into a radio studio. The bottom floor is a radio studio and the top floor is a kind of post-production suite and a bit of a green room. And then outside of those double deck of doors, you're at the festival ground. It's right next to the main stage. And so that was brilliant getting to interact with the audience, meet the audience. Of course, the audience is also interested in coming to talk to their favorite presenters. So getting to see that interaction right away. Yeah, it was all fascinating. And then I stepped pretty quickly and offered to the BBC, as I've said, regionals of local radio and as you just said, relied really heavily on the calling, on the phoning. And yeah, and the big part of what I did there in my initial few months, as a freelance producer was cutting audio primarily, and then answering the phones. So I got to talk to all of them, and I worked across all the shows on the station at the time, but all times of day from the requested music shows in the evening to the breakfast show where I primarily sat through most of my time there. And it was, yeah, it's fascinating getting to talk to these people on a daily basis. They became friends over the two years you're there. They know you, they know your name just by hearing a voice, you tell some personal stories as you're around the radio station, they pick up on that. They know bits about your life. It's yeah. It's kind of a surreal thing, I guess, but they are all kind of lovely people.

Graham Brown: It's all behind the scenes as well. That's what people don't realize. So my question to you, Alex, is how do we recreate some of that for podcasts? Because it may not be in the same format, but create that connection, which radio did so well and was such a big part of its success. And to me, what we can learn. When I listen to a lot of podcasts and I'm sure you do as well, is that, especially in the business space, it seems like the community pay is probably like the last one minute. If you have questions then email me, graham@pikkal.com, whatever. And I forgot about the listener and the community for the first 44 minutes. So what can we do? Have you seen successful reincarnations of that community radio spirit on podcasts? What works? What doesn't work?

Alex Graham: Yeah, that's a good question for sure. And I think about it quite often, because obviously, that senior year was kind of capturing lightning in a bottle in a way because if you've managed to do that successfully, you hit the ground running. I think a lot of it does come with audience numbers. I think it's pretty important to think that as a brand new podcaster, with your first couple of episodes, you're not going to be able to host an event and expect a live audience to turn up, but it doesn't really work that way. You may get lucky. Somebody may find their event online and think it sounds interesting and get a ticket, but chances are slim. I guess a good example, people I've worked with. I've worked with a podcast called the Hotbed for a really long time for a few years now, and they've done sort of six seasons of that show. It's relatively successful. They've hosted a few live events in different venues doing kind of live podcasts, I guess, is the best way to describe it. Just sat in front of a live audience. They take over like a shop or a bookshop or a small venue and they get to meet their audience, get to have a drink with them afterward, record a live podcast that they can ask questions and things from the audience. And that kind of ends up as an episode. And I think that does create quite a nice atmosphere because typically speaking people love seeing themselves on TV or hearing themselves on the radio. So it does kind of replicate some of that, asking a question on a live podcast recording and getting to listen back to it later or sending it to friends and family. Just to hear yourself speak. If you're someone who doesn't broadcast it's probably pretty exciting. And I think that doesn't really go away for some people. So that's a good example. And they've also done panels at festivals. So a lot of these festivals, especially in the UK have comedy tents or they'll have lifestyle tents or health tents, kind of break away from the main music, I guess of a normal music festival. And the Hotbed, they've done that at a festival in the south called Bestival and that ended up as an episode as well that we recorded. And that was brilliant because again, a live audience is there, but not all of them are going to be your fans already, because typically speaking, I guess, it would depend on the numbers, not everybody would have heard of your show and getting to put your content in front of a completely new audience. Some of them may be familiar with you anyway, but you have to assume the majority won't be. That creates a good sense of community as well. And it's an easy way to build a new fan base. I like to think that a lot of people came from that tent at the festival and hopefully listen to future episodes.

Graham Brown: Let's switch gears a little bit talking about now in the future. So when you look at podcasting and what's going on, who really inspires you, what do you think is a really good use of the format and the medium. Who's getting it right and taking it to its full potential, if not, pushing the boundaries on it?

Alex Graham: I love narrative, sort of longer form, maybe journalistic style content. That's kind of what I really enjoy listening to. I think maybe most of us come to podcasting and it starts with an interview show or a round table discussion. I think that's most people's introduction to podcasting. A lot of people still think that's what podcasting is. And that's exactly how I started. I started listening to podcasts in 2008, a group of guys called Rooster Teeth on YouTube, and they had been doing their podcast for years. They were their tech guys, YouTube guys. They were really early to podcasting. So that's how I started. And that's kind of what my introduction to audio, radio and podcasting, everything was through their podcast. And yeah, I think when you break away from those interview shows and those round table discussions, and you realize what can be done with the medium. It's pretty, I mean, it's pretty exciting. I think Serial obviously changed a lot of things. I think it was 2014 with the show. The first season of Serial changed the game for a lot of creators, but I don't think that kind of took off into the mainstream as much as it should have done, considering it is still one of the biggest podcasts in the world today. The amount of interview shows that come still into the mix, daily, hourly, whatever it might be, it's still pretty crazy. Who would have thought that would have inspired a lot more creators to take that route. But yeah, I enjoy people. I enjoy the long form narrative content, things like The Dropout, which is a story I think by ABC news about Elizabeth Holmes. That's crazy interesting to me, things I can learn from, stories I can hear, kind of gives the same effect as reading a book, I suppose, in many ways. Bed of Lies was a really great one that came out of the UK, last year about undercover policing in the late nineties. And that was by the Telegraph. So you've got these big publications and I interviewed the lady who created Bed of Lies, Cara McGoogan and we had a great discussion about how interesting it was that, one of the oldest forms of media being the newspaper, is actually in a lot of cases, The Guardian, The Telegraph, The Independent, places like that, they're spearheading a lot of the content in the UK, the narrative content for podcasting. And I think it's really interesting that the oldest form of media in the world is leaning really heavily on what could be considered one of the newest forms of storytelling.

Graham Brown: A big part of it is that they know how to tell stories, right? A journalist should be a great storyteller in theory and that's a craft, isn't it? If you read a good journalist and read their writing, they write really well. And I think if you can write well, you can also speak well in some ways that you have clarified your thoughts, haven't you? You've managed to distill them, cut out the fluff, find the human story, and then convey that. It's interesting that you talk about people like The Guardian and so on The Telegraph, as people who are really leading that space, it's because the craft is there, isn't it? That craft of storytelling, great journalism at its peak. It really should convey across all mediums. Not just paper and print, but also in audio. And I wonder as well if we sort of take radio, we take journalism on print and we take podcasts and we're going to see people who sort of transcend all of these and just, they are, these are these influencers, storytellers who can tell stories across all platforms. I wonder I don't know. It seems to be, people are very media-specific, don't they? If you're a YouTuber, you're a YouTuber. Podcaster, podcaster. I don't think we've had a lot of cross-media.

Alex Graham: Yeah, I mean, storytelling influencers sound awesome to me. If I can be a storytelling influencer and sell stories on, all these different places that sound like the most appealing thing. And I mean, to your point, journalists quite often, are successful authors as they are journalists and some of them go on to be showrunners or writers for successful TV shows or films, biopics, perhaps if they've got a big case study. So I think that craft, that journalistic talent does lean really well into loads of different things. So it is a natural home for podcasting. But yeah, as you say, it doesn't always happen. YouTubers, these people that have been huge on YouTube or Ted Talk in the last couple of years, places like that kind of have that one home. Hasn't been as much crossover recently, but the old-school journalist really does seem to have that skill set to be able to replicate that success If they're good, at least in a number of different places. And I think that's what makes some of my favorite podcasts have been from news outlets or from journalists. And I think it's quite telling really.

Graham Brown: Just out of interest, you don't have to have an answer for this, we'll edit it out if you don’t. Just an ambush question, are there any sort of podcasters who are doing something radically different, but that's really interesting. It may be like experimenting with a format. I think if it's like music in a way, is that everybody's kind of adopting a format that works. And so they copy it because they know if they modeled that band format or that style of song, then the chances are, they're not on the outlying part of the distribution curves. And so therefore they are more likely to get airplay and yet then somebody comes along and does something radically different and just blows it all up. I wonder, I mean, you talked about Serial as a great example. I wonder, like what we've seen in the last couple of years or what you've heard that really makes you think - These guys are doing something different.

Alex Graham: Yeah, it's an interesting question for sure. For me, it leans really well into kind of what's been going on in the landscape recently, but it's the people that have managed to monetize, I guess, in an interesting way. I mean, it's all well and good, finding sponsorship or being from a brand and kind of having that as your backing. But I think these independent creators are finding really interesting and resourceful ways to make money. That's been the way, that's the thing that stood out for me a lot recently. I mean, I can pick up a good story on a podcast weekly, and now it's quite an easy thing to do, and that does stand out. Of course, there's a lot of rubbish in the podcast space, so many of them are absolute trash. There are a few gems and they appear all the time. But yeah, I think people manage to monetize in a really interesting way. I mean, there's a great example. There's a podcast school. I think it's Dungeons and Daddies, which is a Dungeons and dragons themed podcast with a group of dads, quite simple. But they have done extraordinarily well through Patreon and they've, I mean, they're making huge sums of money, but it's not just through sponsorship. Paid members of the audience can name characters in that Dungeons and Dragons game. They can get merchandise and style to them. They can affect the game that they're playing within the podcast, and I think that's really interesting. That stood out to me right away, because I think that's really interesting. Some way that your audience can pay obviously to support you, but also have an impact on what's going on with the show. That's a really unique thing you can create that is hard to do, but really interesting.

Graham Brown: It’s a great example. Like you said when we started off, you're talking about niche communities and that there, you have one, right? That you've got these middle-aged guys just doing a Dungeons and Dragons podcast. I think it's awesome. And the fact is that people are willing to pay for that and support it.

Alex Graham: Yeah, I love it. I mean, I'm not into the game at all, but I think they've got like 11,000 supporters paying for their show.

Graham Brown: Wow! That's a good gig, especially if they are just doing it for the crowd.

Alex Graham: I'm looking at it now. Yeah. That's pretty cool. I think it ranges from 4 pounds to 40 pounds per month. And that's the subscription levels. They've got 11,000 people in that mix.

Graham Brown: Love it! I'd love to get these guys on this show and interview one of them. Because it's just awesome, isn't it? Like you say, even if you're not into role-playing. That would be interesting just because they're interested in something, it's like going back to school, it was always the teacher that told the best stories that got you into that subject. It could be in history, Korean maths. But that's what you really got into because they were so passionate about it. You got into it, even if you didn't really like the subject. I think that's kind of what we're dealing with here. People who are really into something. And therefore you share the enthusiasm more than you share. Like, I mean, maybe that's a gateway into role-playing those guys.

Alex Graham: Yeah. I mean, passion is infectious sometimes. And I think it's definitely the case. I think I could. I mean, I kind of liked the fantasy stuff and I enjoy TV, film, whatever it might be, games. Never played Dungeons and dragons. I'm pretty sure if I listen to this show, that's me, interested in playing the game. There will be a crossover. I will pay 40 pounds a month. Name myself as a character.

Graham Brown: That'll be awesome, that will be so funny. I'd love to pay to have that happen for you on it.

Alex Graham: Well, if you interview them, let them know and get me involved.

Graham Brown: That is awesome. Alex, it's a really good conversation. I really enjoyed this.