Graham Brown: Okay. Let's just get straight into it Elaine, what do they teach here as a journalist? What did journalists know that other people don't know when it comes to telling stories?
Elaine Grant: Wow. That's a great question. I have worked with people who aren't journalists, certainly plenty of them. And then obviously plenty of excellent journalists. And I think the most fundamental thing that journalists know that the average says, new podcaster doesn't know is we almost automatically think of everything from the listener's point of view, we mean journalists. Whereas you get other people who are new haven't learned yet, and they tend to think of it, they tend to think of storytelling from their own point of view, particularly corporations, if you're talking about branded podcasts organizations and no one wants to listen to that. So that's the first thing that podcast allies tend to talk about when we go into engagements with clients and so forth is to be a listener first. And there's so much that goes into figuring out what that means and stepping into other people's shoes. I think that's the most fundamental thing.
Graham Brown: It is fundamental. Isn't it? It's a step-change in how you approach the content and everything. Where does that come from? When you start out as a journalist does that come through? Did somebody beat that into you in the editing room or like an old-fashioned editor or is it part of the thought architecture? Where does it come from? Or is it just sort of learned on the job?
Elaine Grant: Wow. You know, for me, it's, if you've been doing something for a really long time, I think it's very easy to assume that everything, everybody else knows and takes for granted, but I started out as a journalist in high school. I worked on the high school paper, and then I worked in the college newspaper and I have a degree in English lit and a minor in history. I mean, we're talking about a long time ago now. And I think for me, I did go to journalism school. I didn't actually finish journalism school, but it was learning on the job and I think it was just assumed, it's like when I started, what are the readers need to know? It's not, what do I need to know? Hopefully, my interests coincide with my readers. It's a whole lot easier when that happens, but that's not always the case. So very much on the job. And then journalism school will certainly teach you that as well. So that's just sort of one of those things that frankly when I ran into the opposite, surprised me.
Graham Brown: Well, what is the opposite?
Elaine Grant: The real opposite for me doing say, branded podcasts are organizations that say, oh, we want to do a podcast because we want to tell everybody about our products and we're just going to get together and maybe we'll sit on the trade show floor and we'll have conversations with maybe our customer about how they use our product. And it's like, no, that's an ad. That's not storytelling. And so that surprised me. It was like, how can you think that way.
Graham Brown: When you were working on commercial content, did you have a very clear picture in your mind of who you were talking to?
Elaine Grant: Yeah, I think every time and I had what now appears to me in retrospect to be this great advantage in learning that, which was that I went to grad school in journalism, John at UT Austin, the University of Texas at Austin. Which is a very good school, but at the time they were teaching journalism as a social science. So I wanted to be a practicing journalist. I wanted to go out there and break stories and investigate things and so forth. And that really wasn't for the most part, what they were teaching in the graduate school, they were teaching what I wanted to know and the regular bachelor's program, they were teaching it like we're going to look at, we're going to count how many times the president's name shows up in the press in a particular year, agenda-setting and all this sort of social science research, which couldn't have bored me more. And so I left and I needed a job and I had a background in acting which turned out to actually be sort of useful. And one thing led to another and I met this editor of a bunch of trade magazines for technology, people who used particular kinds of computers, and way back then it mattered whether it was a Hewlett Packard computer, a Dell computer, whatever. So this publishing company had these trade journals, trade newspapers, and trade magazines for computer users of Hewlett Packard computers say, and I didn't know the first thing about computers. I mean, I was like 21, 22, just needing a job. And it turned out that this editor was also an actor. And so we hit it off, he had acting posters in his office and I said, well, he said, you can do this, you can write some freelance pieces. I think it was like 10 cents a word. And I said, I really don't know anything about this and he said, oh, that's okay, you'll learn. And that acting background also has helped me because when you're an actor, you step into the shoes of a character and of the other characters. So it was interesting because he taught me how to think about being a reader and that reader could not have been more different than me. So I had to think about things from that perspective. And I had some other jobs along the way that way. And I was an editor at Inc magazine, which at the time was, and probably still is the Bible of entrepreneurship. So we had a very clear picture of who our reader was. And yeah, I think that has really been ingrained in me and podcast allies we actually teach that now to new podcasters. And also when we consult.
Graham Brown: Even to acknowledge it is a big step forward. Isn't it? That this is the person you're speaking to. I wonder as an actor as well. I mean, I've never really done acting, tried at school, bit forced into acting, but being on the stage and reading the audience. So to what extent are you doing that as an actor? You're actually, there's a point. I wouldn't have done a lot of public speaking. You stand on stage and the first few years just trying to get through without dying, like driving the car the first time, as long as I can come out of this alive. And then, within like a couple of years, you're kind of like changing the cassette tape and all this sort of thing, the car, but like on stage as well, you get to that point where you can actually. I have this sort of meta-awareness, which is like, I'm acting out the lines, which is like my physical body almost, and then I've got this sort of, awareness that I'm actually reading the audience as well, but I'm actually looking at that person speaking to them directly as an actor. To what extent do you do that?
Elaine Grant: I think very much so. I mean, if you've been on stage just a public speaker and I've done that too, I think there's a huge similarity, you can feel the energy in an audience if you're in person. It's one of the biggest complaints that I've heard over the course of the last year from public speakers, especially, you know that, oh, I miss that. I miss that feeling in the crowd. You know, they're with you or sometimes, they're not with you, or you're not sure. It seems like you've had that experience as a public speaker.
Graham Brown: It's like performing, isn't it? I mean, you talk about acting and I think almost with podcasting as well, there's a line you have to cross where, as a host, you realize you're performing. And I wonder if that doesn't come naturally to corporates as well. Like yourself, I work a lot with corporates. Performing means being vulnerable in a way. It means stepping out of your armor in somebody else's shoes. How do you get people to perform without being dramatic? And what is the secret there? Because I think this is a really, it's a missing link, isn't it? With a lot of podcasting, people go in and they do it like an event. Like you talk about this sort of conference floor type events. And we're just next question to the same question, but to the, my next panelists, it's like, you can see people groaning, you go here to perform and entertain, not as a clown, but to engage people.
Elaine Grant: I think so I think one of the hardest things is, why do we all love podcasts? Good podcasts. It's I think it's the intimacy, right? Because having come from public radio where it's one to many, any radio. That's more of a news announcer putting on a persona voice, but the best podcasts, it really is like you're listening to someone who is right, I mean, obviously, they were right there in your ear. It's one-to-one. It's very authentic. Intimate. I get to know you as a host over time. And so I keep coming back because I like you, the host and, it's a pretty hard thing to teach. I think it's teachable, but it's a pretty hard thing to teach. And I think often I'm not always the best at it as a host because I spent a lot of years in public radio and it's hard to turn off that news announcer persona. You just fall into it automatically, it can be hard to turn off. I really admire people who they're just like minutia Moroni for instance, is so good at that. And, oh, there's so many Johnathan fields of good life project is really good at it. I mean, there's a lot of them and I really admire that. I think one of the ways to coach hosts to do that is to encourage them, to listen to podcast hosts that they really like and try to deconstruct that, and listen to how real is this person sounding? What do you think?
Graham Brown: Absolutely. I totally agree with you. I think like, to listen to, it's like listening to music, if you're a musician, you would listen to other musicians to get inspiration and almost it's like embedded in your brain the patterns, the sounds like a photographer. I know photographers who did photojournalism won awards for it. I asked him like, how do you take a good photograph? And he says, I don't know. I just look for that, so lots of photographs and that's it. You've got those patterns in your head and I think it's similar with listening. Isn't it? It's embedded in your brain. What good sounds, sounds like. Whether it's music or a podcast and even yourself, I listened to, for example, your voice, I can clearly tell you've been on the radio. There's something about it as well. You've got that radio voice and only when you start talking to people in the trade, you realize actually that's a craft. Why, just something I'm curious about, like, why do radio people sound the certain way? And also, when you talk, there's a lot of emphases, like you're acting in a way, not in any sort of pretentious way, but it's like, you're conscious of the fact that the listeners can't see you and they're not sitting in front of you. So you're reaching out to them, engaging them with your emotions and the voice. Right.
Elaine Grant: Well, I hear that in your voice.
Graham Brown: Well, I've been hanging around with people like you for a few years. That's why I'm getting it.
Elaine Grant: When you said that you had not acted or that you were forced to act, I thought no, no, no, no. And then you said, but I've done a lot of public speaking and I can hear it. I can hear it. Absolutely.
Graham Brown: What about training that's corporate though because that doesn't come naturally. Where do you get that from?
Elaine Grant: How do I train them?
Graham Brown: No. How do you, like your voice is an instrument, right? It carries emotion. You’re not monologuing. You're not monitoring. Sorry. Where does that come from? And what are you conscious of it when you talk?
Elaine Grant: I'm not particularly conscious of it. When I talk, I think I probably sound different when I'm being interviewed. Where I'm interviewing then if you and I were to sit down over lunch, I might be less careful perhaps but it's an automatic thing like I'd like to actually be less careful and more authentic. Boy, really making me work hard Graham with these questions because so much of this is intuitive and we've just at podcast allies, we've just launched this training arm of our company. And so I have to take all this stuff that I've just been doing for decades and try to translate it into something that is in my conscious brain. Like how do you, and so far in my experience, and I haven't been, work coaching hosts for that long, a few years, everybody needs a different kind of coaching because everybody's coming from a different place? And so it goes back to that listening. It's like, what am I hearing in your voice? Or the kinds of questions that you ask or the way you ask them or in how keenly you're listening to me, for instance as your guest. And I think everybody is different. And so the coaching is a response in some ways I have thought, and I would love to get your take on this. I know there are podcasts out there that do this, but I have often thought that I really want to start a podcast that dissects pieces of other podcasts, like great scenes, good at interviews, even wonderful introductions, moments in time and pulls them apart. Like you'd play a clip, pull it apart. Why is that working? Why do we like that? And then maybe talk to one of the producers or the host and talk about that because you can just absorb it, but if you really dissect it, maybe you can really learn something. I don't know. What do you think? Is there a need for that?
Graham Brown: Absolutely. I think it's a wonderful idea. No, I haven't seen anybody do that. And in a way, Elaine, you were saying that what comes very intuitively to you, it's sometimes the hardest thing to create architecture out of and teach because you have to really think about it because you've just been doing this as muscle memory for years and years, and now you actually have to make words out of it, which is tough. But maybe that's how you do it is by tearing down, and in a very sort of agile way, you're kind of evolving the architecture and maybe there isn't like a playbook for it right now, but as you go through and dissect the scenes, maybe that comes together.
Elaine Grant: Yeah, I think there's truth in that, and then of course you also do pull in being a journalist of any kind. I don't think it matters the medium, the longer you do it, the more you pull in things that you've learned in different fields and connect them. It's sort of like being this interdisciplinary. Yeah. I can't help myself. Oh, this thing I see over here is something about the environment I see over here in business, or I see in, you pull things together and in terms of training, good podcasters, so much of it, depending on the format, isn't a writing. So there are certain frameworks that, you can pull from say narrative non-fiction. That is very trainable, have been trained. I mean, when I first went to work in public radio as a reporter in 2008, they talked to me about fear of the mind. And I had not heard that phrase before. And I was just awestruck. I was like, yeah, I don't care what you pay me, I'm going to work here. Which was probably a very bad attitude cause I didn't get paid well but I was worried that I'll learn so much. Yeah. So there are certain things that are very trainable, all like painting scenes and narrative non-fiction, like say you're telling a story, something that happened to Graham that's really important. For the listener to understand it you need some statistics or you need some history and some dates. So you paint this scene and you leave the cliffhanger out, you leave the resolution out and then you switch to the statistics. And somebody going to stick with you because they want to get back to you, but what happened, did Graham actually fall off the cliff or not?
Graham Brown: Find out next week?
Elaine Grant: Find out next week or just find out after you sit through this little bit of information, I have to impart to you about statistics. That is something I learned in class.
Graham Brown: Yeah, it's a technique. Isn't it? I mean, I just think about my conversations from the last week or so. And in those conversations, loosely connected to podcasting and family and friends, I've talked about writers, I have talked about, movies, this is what I saw on Netflix, and then talked about music as well. These lyrics that somebody wrote, and if you think about what makes all of these people really good? I mean, I was talking about Martin Scorsese as a director to my brother the other day. Cause we're both sorts of fans of those very Scorsese type mafia movies, but there's a very typical way that he does these sort of Scorsese scenes, which are like these mega scenes, where you have all of these kind of like this building of a plotline on these characters and they're all interacting in this huge scene. And that's a technique in the same way. If you look at any kind of, I dunno what you call these people. I mean, storytellers, I suppose, at the end of the day, whether they're movie director or journalist or a writer or a lyricist, I was just listening to Bob Dylan, like this week, I mean, 60 years ago he wrote, A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall. That's like 60 years, but you listen to the lyrics of that now, and it's a story. And you think about these people, they have this amazing ability to engage with you through any format, any medium. Like when people are doing podcasts, it's almost like that doesn't count. That doesn't mean anything to my life or my story or how I'm going to do it. But just to take a little bit of that, it would create that magic, all that sort of, you're talking about getting people coming back. These are techniques I've got to remember to get my audience, to listen to the next part or I have to think about how I'm going to pull them in and make them care about this if you think about it. So like, for example, at Francis Ford Coppola, with The Godfather, how does he make people care about a criminal, and empathize with that person that's a masterpiece of directing. And I suppose that's really, what journalists do so well and are not necessarily criminals, but care about the human in this story. And this is missing in podcasts, right?
Elaine Grant: I don't think it is missing in podcasts. I think that there are so many different types of podcasts and different levels of quality. I mean, that's the blessing and the curse of the fact that very few barriers to entry, right? So I actually taught a workshop. I have a product, I have a video product that is, storytelling for interviewing. So that is a technique, and it's what you're talking about. It's like, all right, well, first we have to figure out what is a story anyway, and it's, the basic arc of a story, the three-act structure, the journey, the hero's journey. However, you want to describe it. My personal favorite is the IRA Glass way, which is, action stakes reflection. Have you heard that?
Graham Brown: No teach me.
Elaine Grant: Oh, when I first heard that, I thought, oh, this is a way easier way to explain it. It's like, okay, so you jump into the action. That's what grabs us as readers or listeners, or watchers. You have to have a character you care about. The stakes have to be high. There has to be some suspense, which means there has to be some conflict. And then, ultimately there's a resolution and a story is essentially something that moves along where we're always saying, and then what happened? And then what happened? And then what happened? So once you understand that, then you go from there and say, well, a story is fundamental. Or an interview as a journalist anyways, a good interview is the foundation to build a story. So if you don't have good interviewing skills, you're not going to have a good story because you don't have the details that you need. And so I can, this presentation that I did, I've got, the difference between a house with a great foundation, this beautiful house in a ramshackle thing that just falls apart. And so there are a lot of techniques that you can use as an interviewer and at the company that I founded with my partner, we did this cheesy thing, and we came up with a whole bunch of belief systems. We called it a manifesto for a while, but it's really not. But basically, we believe that you can tell a story in 30 seconds, or it could be a podcast that takes six hours, but that's what makes us care that plus who's the character. I know podcasters who come from the world of journalism, that's the word they use, like I'll still because I came up sort of as a traditional journalist, call somebody a source or a subject, but they'll say who's the character? And that's much more like a novelist or a movie director. I think it's a good way to look at it.
Graham Brown: Wonderful.
Elaine Grant: Yeah.
Graham Brown: Yeah. I love it. The technique as well that you teach. And I'm sure people get a lot out of that because it's this deconstructing it isn't in a non, I'm trying to think of the word. There's a lot of mystery surrounding it with storytelling naturally. But if you look at great storytellers, you can see that they apply a technique, like your three scenes and I mean, that's Shakespeare. And then you see people like Steve jobs as well. Even you're talking about storytelling in 30 seconds, even the use of analogy, analogies, the story isn't that. If you tell somebody the iPod is a tool for the heart, that's a story.
Elaine Grant: Oh my gosh. That's wonderful. Yeah.
Graham Brown: Yeah, exactly. And people that's the story. I thought the story was once upon a time and I think it might be the part of the, sort of like concluding this is like, the part of the resistance is maybe that people, firstly they don't understand that is storytelling. And secondly, people think that storytelling, some sort of fabrication of the truth, and like as a journalist, you should focus on the truth and not the story. That's I think that, what's the word I'm looking for, the tension in the narrative here is that, people think that I should tell facts. That's what I'm here to do because nothing else is acceptable. I mean, how do you get over that? Because that's quite common, isn't it? That people feel that they should be like a spark, cold, emotionless delivery.
Elaine Grant: I'm sure it's a cultural thing. And so many different things affect that. So. What's your age, what era are you from? So to speak in terms of journalism or now podcasting. I think in my world, podcasters are a little bit more about telling the human side of things. And I also think among younger journalists these days, there's starting to be a lot of discussion about the myth of objectivity, there really is no such thing as objectivity because we all come from our own lived experiences and, like in America, white supremacist culture. So we assume like, a certain lens that's objective. Well, no, it really isn't, but we haven't taken that. I think people are starting now to take a step back and say, is that true? Is there such a thing as objective truth? What happens if I look at it through the lens of this lived experience versus that lived experience, but it sounds like you've had some very different experiences. If I can turn the tables for a minute, then I have in terms of, when you said, I think storytelling is missing from podcasts. Tell me why you feel that way.
Graham Brown: Well, maybe it's because we're behind here in Asia a little bit like four or five years. So the kind of podcasting now. So firstly, you don't have people like IRA Glass because you don't have public radio in the same way that you do in the states or the UK, for example, with BBC or NPR Canada. Oh yeah, of course. Yeah. All of those, even in Australia as well, there's these sort of great traditions of storytelling, I suppose, which can be done without any sort of commercial interest, really. So you have that, and then you also have corporates who are approaching it and they are for the first time having to be vulnerable. And so in some sense, it's happening slowly. And I've seen it, in a very literal way where, you have the CEO who's doing the podcast, literally not saying it in a millennial literally way, but literally would come to the podcast and would undo his tie when he sits down. And to me, it's like, that's very symbolic, isn't it? Who'd unbutton while doing the podcasts, rolling up the sleeves? It's like, okay, now, I can be me a little bit and it doesn't come naturally because you know what I say to the host is like you told me, you are an actor, you trained in acting, you're passionate about acting, et cetera. These are bits of detail that you've told about yourself, which hosts will sometimes miss the opportunity to do and I always tell them that the audience connects with you and not the guest. You're the bridge into their world. And I feel that hosts many times deflect that. And I did that when I started out the podcast, I did hundreds of episodes without saying anything about me. And I felt that was a missed opportunity because I was the reason or any host is the reason that you'll keep coming back because we connect with you. I mean Ira Glass is a great example. Guide you into the world of many people, whether they're running a diner or whatever it may be, but you connect with him and he's your bridge into that world just as a good radio anchor would be. So to your point about like, why do you think storytelling's missing is because I feel that people still see themselves very much like an event moderator because that's all they have known. And it takes people like yourself and hopefully myself to show people, look, this is what it could be.
Elaine Grant: And it takes the same coaching over and over and over again because I think I've had this experience not that long ago if you grew up in a very professional environment, Corporate environment, if you will, you are trained to behave in a certain way, and you are rewarded for that training to the point where it comes so naturally, you don't know you're doing it just like I was talking about it's hard to get over that news announcer voice. And as this becomes a part of you, it's quite difficult I think for people in the corporate world to all of a sudden go, oh, I'm just gonna relax and be me, but especially because who is listening, what happens? It's an identity shift. I have a student who is in business for herself. She does B2B content marketing. She's a really good writer. She's super professional. She's been extremely successful at this for 20 years. And now she's starting a podcast called, Exceptional Girls. And it is about having daughters who are neuro-diverse. So they have autism or ADHD or whatever, and she used that term. She said this is an identity shift for me. This is scary. What are my clients going to think? They've never seen this part of me before, so there's that whole, when we come out of our identity, whether it's me as a broadcaster or corporate person, trying to all of a sudden be this good storyteller, and intimate and themselves. It's hard. That's been my experience. I don't know. Has it been difficult for you to train people this way?
Graham Brown: Absolutely. You talk about that being ingrained. You're talking to people who are the product of that rules of the game, if you like, which is being efficient, as opposed to being authentic. Isn't that? If you're a lawyer, you don't go around talking about the mistakes you've made or a doctor. Can you imagine? So that comes with, so therefore the most successful ones adopt that mindset. It's tough. And if now people are expecting different things that people talk about authenticity, talk about empathy. These are all born of a place where we have to sort of adopt a different identity, that's hard.
Elaine Grant: Yeah. I think one thing that we don't talk about nearly enough in podcasting is vulnerability, right? Because if you get under the covers with somebody after a while, like what's the biggest challenge you're facing often that's what it is. I'm putting my voice out there. That is so integral to who I am. What are people going to think? I'm nervous about that. Or I don't like the sound of my voice on tape or whatever, we don't talk about vulnerability and confidence and all of that stuff enough. And we are expecting people to behave differently than we have expected in the past. It is a different medium.
Graham Brown: Yeah. And it starts with the hard part is to get your guests to be vulnerable. You have to be vulnerable. You can't talk about, oh, tell me about your biggest mistakes without showing that you've screwed up first because that's sort of leading by example, isn't it dare to be vulnerable. That's tough, isn't it? Because then you have to, rather than just being an interviewer, you have to create that sort of safe space for people to say, oh, okay, it's fine. This guy is now talking about how he lost 5 million on the last business deal about a similar kind of thing now and that's hard, isn't it? Because I think a lot of people go into that thinking I'm just going to ask these really sorts of probing questions to my guests. Then you become like a hack, looking for that scoop. Whereas that's not what people want is that we want to create that sort of empathy and intimacy that you talked about.
Elaine Grant: Yeah. I think you just don't succeed that way. Really. Not without a great deal of skill, I think it's possible, but you really need a great deal of skill and experience, to be successful that way. And it's generally, I mean, it's hard to generalize. I will say with podcasts because there are so many different formats, so many different kinds that it does depend on what we're talking about. Are we talking about an interview show or a solo hosted show or a narrative podcast that's highly produced? So, it takes hours and hours and hours to get just that right bite, then you're going to eat it. So this is a little hard to generalize, but yeah, I agree. But you referred to that yourself. You said you did hundreds of episodes without revealing anything about yourself and then obviously you've made a change at some point. What happened?
Graham Brown: It wasn't an epiphany moment. I mean I am sure if I write The book that will be the thing, the light bulb moment, but it really was just a gradual, I mean, I suppose it's like acting, isn't it. It's just, you're realizing, you're having to take yourself to the next level. You've mastered the, I can actually the master, the mechanics of it if you like.
Elaine Grant: I know where a stage is.
Graham Brown: You know how it all works now and it's like, it's not fatal. And now it's like, okay, how do I actually reach out and do this? And just like listening to other people as well, and sort of working out what is it that really engages people and don't realize that actually. I think the biggest realization wasn't about the guest. I'm not saying it in any sort of egoic way, but like when you speak to your audience, you actually find out it's you that they're connecting with. And that was a big realization for me because the guests didn't matter so much.
Elaine Grant: Isn't that fascinating? I was quite surprised by that. I mean there are statistics, you've probably seen them that, I wish I knew the number on top of my head. I think it's like 80 or 90% of listeners come back to a particular podcast because they fall in love with the host, which is one of the reasons why people will often ask me was, should we? And somebody just asked me this the other day. Should we have a different host for each episode? I'm like, no, no, no, no, never do that. Never, ever until.
Graham Brown: Totally. Yeah. All good stuff to learn. Elaine, this has been wonderful. Really enjoyed this discussion. You're a true artist.